Author Topic: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir  (Read 5898 times)

Offline mdahl45

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2011, 03:11:29 pm »
I sympathize with the teacher. You people have no idea what Korean students are like today. The conflicts between parents, teachers and the school overall is overwhelming; resulting from where the trouble really sits and that's with the student. Most of the foreign teachers here are just like flies on the wall. Don't go judging something or someone, without knowing what is really going here in Korea. Okay? Besides, it's not your business or concern.

The trouble sits with the students?

Why is that?
They are born bad. I can only speak from personal experience but at no point in time did any adult lay a hand on me. As long as teachers were competent I was a lovely student. I was disruptive and disrespecful when teachers were incompetent or arrogant.
Even though I'm not Christian I still find the "golden rule" to be quite useful so...

Maybe the same policy should be in place for the workplace as well. If you show up to work late the VP kicks you in the groin. Beatings for everyone.

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It's not my concern... so you are telling everyone else that they shouldn't care about children. Excuse us for concerning ourselves with the wellbeing of other people. I know It's quite unreasonable.

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #81 on: May 02, 2011, 03:27:35 pm »
Freedom4life:  We have no idea what Korean students are like today?  Umm, excuse me but most of us here are teachers.  We teach Korean students every day.  Some of us have been here for a few years or more....

I do agree that the conflicts between parents, teachers and the school are overwhelming and I sympathize with my Korean counterparts because the number of issues they deal with on a day to day basis are enormous....BUT....in no way shape or form does that entitle a teacher to do what that woman did in that video.  Come on!  Be serious here.  She punched him in the head, karate chopped him MANY TIMES in the neck and repeatedly kicked KICKED the boy in the groin.

I don't care what the boy did or how bad he was....NO ONE should ever do that to ANYONE! 

I can honestly say that as much as I respect the teachers at my school, and they do a wonderful job, if I saw one of them beating BEATING up a boy like that, I would step in nicely and find a way to end the situation. 

But, that being said, I know my 6 Korean co teachers well and have worked with them each for a long while and I know they would never do that.  We have talked about discipline at great lengths.  The teachers that have earned the respect of their students have a much easier go of it than the ones that hit them. 

Offline boosh77

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2011, 04:47:52 pm »
I think the problem here is mostly with the law and not necessarily with the teachers. From what i understand it seems to be a very grey area. The education system is in a transition period and Korea is changing fast. I'm sure it won't be too long before there is a total ban on all forms of corporal punishment in schools but all teachers NEED to be trained properly. A lot of the teachers and schools don't know any different and don't have any other system in place to deal with bad behaviour.

 As for this video, unfortunately I've also seen worse here in Korea but I do believe MOST teachers In Korea administer punishment in a sincere way and with the support of parents and students (or choose to avoid it altogether). And Korean teachers DO have a different role to teachers back home.
For those people that are trying to justify the teacher's behaviour by saying that this or any other student "deserves" it are really missing the point and to say that there is no other way is simply not the case.
Children are human beings and have the right not to be hit in anger under any circumstance - especially in an educational environment. In our case, when that student chooses to misbehave or not listen in our lesson, we often have no idea to their background, their problems or even the day they are having. No behaviour should really be taken personally.
There are bigger issues in our own countries and much more extreme behaviour and the problem is NOT lack of corporal punishment.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 05:26:29 pm by boosh77 »

Offline renard.tami

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #83 on: May 02, 2011, 05:09:27 pm »
I think one of the biggest problems with the Korean education system is the lack of training of teachers for effective classroom management that doesn't involve the use of physical punishment. I'm not totally against corporal punishment when used with a little bit of humor and especially not to the extent that a child cannot defend him/herself against an adult acting out of anger and abusing his/her position of power. Not only are teachers not sufficiently trained in alternative classroom management options, but schools are not equipped with the capability to expel and punish students. We've had several problems this year in my school with some students, and the school is so handcuffed because they don't have the power to expel students without the approval of the students' parents. We have parents that will not show up for meetings and will not sign the paperwork to remove their child from our school. There's NOTHING my school can do. This is a fundamental problem with the education system in Korea and it's infuriating. SMOE and a bunch of admin big heads decide to immediately ban the use of any corporal punishment without the foresight of problems it would cause without training teachers, providing more alternative schools that can handle the amount of students that need alternative education, and empowering schools to protect their teachers and students.

Yes, we all have some students that are disrespectful and don't follow the rules, etc etc. These are the students that are giving the finger to a culture that demands and takes their respect instead of earning it. Not sure how I would react if I was a child growing up in a culture where some adults abused the system like this. You have to feel bad for the kids that the system doesn't recognize alternative ways to fulfill their needs, whether it's emotional behavioral needs or educational needs.

Offline boosh77

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #84 on: May 02, 2011, 05:31:05 pm »
I think one of the biggest problems with the Korean education system is the lack of training of teachers for effective classroom management that doesn't involve the use of physical punishment. I'm not totally against corporal punishment when used with a little bit of humor and especially not to the extent that a child cannot defend him/herself against an adult acting out of anger and abusing his/her position of power. Not only are teachers not sufficiently trained in alternative classroom management options, but schools are not equipped with the capability to expel and punish students. We've had several problems this year in my school with some students, and the school is so handcuffed because they don't have the power to expel students without the approval of the students' parents. We have parents that will not show up for meetings and will not sign the paperwork to remove their child from our school. There's NOTHING my school can do. This is a fundamental problem with the education system in Korea and it's infuriating. SMOE and a bunch of admin big heads decide to immediately ban the use of any corporal punishment without the foresight of problems it would cause without training teachers, providing more alternative schools that can handle the amount of students that need alternative education, and empowering schools to protect their teachers and students.

Yes, we all have some students that are disrespectful and don't follow the rules, etc etc. These are the students that are giving the finger to a culture that demands and takes their respect instead of earning it. Not sure how I would react if I was a child growing up in a culture where some adults abused the system like this. You have to feel bad for the kids that the system doesn't recognize alternative ways to fulfill their needs, whether it's emotional behavioral needs or educational needs.

I couldn't agree more

Offline Natz

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #85 on: May 02, 2011, 06:29:36 pm »
It's quite harsh and sad actually! Today my co-teacher told me to hit the students on the head or back to shut them up, and she really does smack them pretty hard! I felt really bad for the kid and would never be able to hit them like that ???

Offline H.W.

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #86 on: May 02, 2011, 06:56:28 pm »

To me the biggest underlying problem with this gets down to the teacher-student relationship
AND the way students are ONLY responsive to NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT.

By that I mean,
TEACHERS - only know how to control kids by shouting, threatening, or hitting
STUDENTS - only Do what teachers tell them to do when they are angry,
                    not when they ASK them NICELY. as soon as you're nice, they think that you're a doormat.
                    they'll be nice to you but step all over you and will not listen to you.

(Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of this so I am the teacher who's nice, who doesn't get angry at them
so they smile at me but don't listen to me when I tell them to be quite..)

So abandoning corporal punishment all of a sudden,
without providing the time and the transition to happen for everyone to get used to the
POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT system, has lead to this chaos we ALL face now.

This is a VERY interesting point.  When the ban in Seoul came into effect I was brand new teaching at my school, and I had never taught before in my life.  I was a "nice teacher" and my stern looks didn't have a lot of teeth, honestly.  I am in my second semester now, and their behaviour is markedly better across the board.  The kids have adjusted to my positive reinforcement, and I have found the right way to show "anger". (I put it in quotation marks because it's theatrical anger, not real anger--am I really going to flip my sh*t because a kid is bored about learning the days of the week and starts chatting with a friend instead?)  I think the idea that you're either a harsh disciplinarian with no connection or feeling for your students or you are a big mushball who lets them run wild is way too simplistic and totally untrue.  You have to mix in both styles.  I am pretty much the gentlest and sweetest teacher you've ever seen until a kid steps out of line and then I quickly begin my descent into scary territory (because giving lots of warnings over and over cuts into lesson time).  My two teacher personae are so different and change so suddenly that it must seem schizoid.  I like that--it keeps the kids on their toes.  I am also a bit sweeter to kids who are sweet to me--kids know they can earn more affection and leeway from me by working hard in class and being polite and enthusiastic. 

The only time I get physical with kids is in breaking up real fights (not playfights) and the occasional tap on the head with a marker to wake them up.  I am not saying that this can work for everyone, but think there is a lot less reason to hit elementary kids than there is with middle and high school kids.  If a kid struck me, (I have heard stories from other teachers) I would probably grab him by the shirt collar and drag him to the head teacher, but that's about it. 
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Offline constantinople

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2011, 08:26:43 am »
Why should physical abuse be okay with children, but not adults?

It angers me to read these comments saying the kid deserved being punished so harshly.

These "excuses" could be applied to adults as well. Look at things from a different perspective, such as spousal abuse. How many women get beat up by their partners for being late? I guess it's okay to beat them up. They're just women, after all. How often do you see men humiliating their wives in public? Well, they deserve it. They are probably not obedient.

What's funny is that these kids who get abused by their teachers continue to act out. I wonder why.
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Offline khowes

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2011, 08:31:54 am »
In my opinion hitting the students does little to change their behaviour. My classroom is outside the teachers room where students are routinely hit. The students get smacked a few times, and they are often laughing through it.

There was an incident in my school cafeteria, that I think was plain abuse. Some students were laughing (in an already loud cafeteria) and one of the older teachers got irritated, lined them up and slapped them all across the face. Not right.

Students don't deserve to be hit. There are other ways that are more effective in changing a students behaviour.

Offline elprofesor

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #89 on: May 04, 2011, 06:35:19 am »
the teacher who beat the child in this clip was fired as of today.  She no longer holds her post as teacher it was announced in the morning news.

Offline Yu_Bumsuk

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2011, 07:26:30 am »
the teacher who beat the child in this clip was fired as of today.  She no longer holds her post as teacher it was announced in the morning news.

So I guess now she'll have to start her own hagwon where the worst that can happen is that parents withdraw their kid.

Offline pcunit2009

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #91 on: May 04, 2011, 08:35:27 am »
Now this video is extreme and indefensible....

BUT

If a student has grossly misbehaved and is being abusive then I for one see no problem in giving them a good old fashioned 'clip around the ear'. This video is way to far, but a clip around the ear wouldn't do any lasting damage. Not for being 20 minutes late though I would like to add.

I would never personally do it myself for fear of the repercussions and it is illegal, but if it were legal - then I would quite happily undertake such punishments when appropriate. Only in extreme circumstances though..

In England we have a problem with teachers being powerless to do anything to control the students, many of them have very little respect for authority or the teachers. Same with the police and across society. I imagine it's a similar tale in other countries.

In Korea, the students have a level of respect for authority and discipline still. Maybe thats partly because of the repercussions if they do misbehave.

In England, so many students think they are invincible and even goad the teachers 'What are you going to do about it?' when they are told not to do something. I've seen it with my own eyes many times.

If you gave them a good old fashioned clip around the ear then maybe they'd know once again who's boss, and have some respect for rules and authority. Like the 'good old days'.

Violence is not always the answer of course, but in terms of instilling respect and discipline in young people - a slap around the ear is not going to cause any long lasting harm.

Unfortunately, the power gets abused sometimes (like in this video) so the do-gooders of the world preach about how violence is wrong etc... and corporal punishment is outlawed.

My mum and dad used to hit me if I had misbehaved badly. I knew my place and knew I deserved it. It didn't do me any harm. Except for I beat my girlfriend sometimes when she disobeys me. But most of the time she deserves it.

I'm only 22 now, I remember in school so many of the kids deserved a slap from the teachers - it would have sorted out so many issues. But no, the teachers couldn't. Half the school left without any qualifications at 16 and was allowed to pretty much run amok without fear or punishment.
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Offline elzoog

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #92 on: May 04, 2011, 08:42:10 am »
The trouble sits with the students?

Why is that?
They are born bad. I can only speak from personal experience but at no point in time did any adult lay a hand on me. As long as teachers were competent I was a lovely student. I was disruptive and disrespecful when teachers were incompetent or arrogant.
Even though I'm not Christian I still find the "golden rule" to be quite useful so...

I was disrespectful to my fifth grade teacher not because she was incompetent, but because I was tired of school in general and wanted to rebel.

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Maybe the same policy should be in place for the workplace as well. If you show up to work late the VP kicks you in the groin. Beatings for everyone.

If we want to treat discipline in school the same way discipline is handled in the workplace, then let's fire students who don't do their work.  In the workplace, if you play on your cell phone instead of doing work your boss tells you to do, you would be fired eventually.   Somehow, I don't think the excuse of "My boss is incompetent therefore I should play on my cell phone instead of doing my work." would be all that effective as a defense.

Basically, having a job in the adult world is not the same as being a student in the public school.   Comparing the two like you did, is kind of silly.    One key difference for you to consider is, if I decide not to go to work for several days, the boss fires me.   However, I can either look for another job, or not work at all.   If I have a way to live without having to go to work, then I really wouldn't be forced to work.   Whereas, if a student decides not to go to school for several days, eventually the police will be involved to somehow force him to go to school.  That alone should tell you that school is something we force people to do. 

Try to think of any examples, other than school, where if you decide not to go, then the police will show up to make you go.

Quote
PS
It's not my concern... so you are telling everyone else that they shouldn't care about children. Excuse us for concerning ourselves with the wellbeing of other people. I know It's quite unreasonable.

Saying the student has a problem doesn't mean the person doesn't care about the well being of the student.   Most of my students have the problem that their attention span doesn't seem to last beyond about 5 seconds (these are high school students).  They are also kind of selfish (example, they steal computer mouses from the computers in the back of the room).   Me saying they have these problems doesn't mean I don't care about their well being.  I tell them that in real life, if they ignore people and steal things they will get into trouble.


Offline chrisplank

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #93 on: May 04, 2011, 08:53:43 am »
My mum and dad used to hit me if I had misbehaved badly. I knew my place and knew I deserved it. It didn't do me any harm. Except for I beat my girlfriend sometimes when she disobeys me. But most of the time she deserves it.


I just spit my first Maxim of the day on my desk.  Comment of the month!

Offline elzoog

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #94 on: May 04, 2011, 08:56:13 am »
sometimes they'll just pickpocket stores etc...

Interesting point.   If I steal from a store, and ignore a police officer who tells me to stop, then the police officer would probably start using physical force.

To those who say we don't discipline adults by physical punishment, what's your response to that?


Offline marchingocelot

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #95 on: May 04, 2011, 09:05:26 am »


My mum and dad used to hit me if I had misbehaved badly. I knew my place and knew I deserved it. It didn't do me any harm. Except for I beat my girlfriend sometimes when she disobeys me. But most of the time she deserves it.

Whoa stealth-trolling. You hit all the usual points in this debate ("good old days" "kids need to know their place" "I was beat as a kid I turned out fine herp derp") that I thought you were serious. Or were you and you decided to hell with it, I'll throw in some trolling too?
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Offline elzoog

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2011, 09:15:03 am »
Why should physical abuse be okay with children, but not adults?

In certain situations, physical punishment of adults is accepted.

Since you bring up spousal abuse, what do you think the police would do if the husband, or wife, doesn't cooperate with the police when they are called in a domestic violence situation?   Give him a time out?  Have a conference with his mother?  If they try to put a guy in jail for something serious like rape, and the guy doesn't want to go, maybe the police can try positive reinforcement.   Maybe tell the guy they will give him chocolate if he cooperates with them?

Looks to me like, if I do something seriously bad, the police are probably going to be pretty physical with me.

Of course if I do something serious like rape, then I deserve it right?

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It angers me to read these comments saying the kid deserved being punished so harshly.

Well, being late for school probably isn't serious enough to warrant a harsh physical punishment.   Gotta agree with you there. 

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These "excuses" could be applied to adults as well. Look at things from a different perspective, such as spousal abuse. How many women get beat up by their partners for being late? I guess it's okay to beat them up. They're just women, after all. How often do you see men humiliating their wives in public? Well, they deserve it. They are probably not obedient.

If a man is humiliated by a woman in public, usually people thinks he deserves it.   To see evidence of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hn-wL6hPq8



Offline woman-king

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #97 on: May 05, 2011, 10:03:48 pm »
Why should physical abuse be okay with children, but not adults?

In certain situations, physical punishment of adults is accepted.

Since you bring up spousal abuse, what do you think the police would do if the husband, or wife, doesn't cooperate with the police when they are called in a domestic violence situation?   Give him a time out?  Have a conference with his mother?  If they try to put a guy in jail for something serious like rape, and the guy doesn't want to go, maybe the police can try positive reinforcement.   Maybe tell the guy they will give him chocolate if he cooperates with them?

Looks to me like, if I do something seriously bad, the police are probably going to be pretty physical with me.

Of course if I do something serious like rape, then I deserve it right?

Quote
It angers me to read these comments saying the kid deserved being punished so harshly.

Well, being late for school probably isn't serious enough to warrant a harsh physical punishment.   Gotta agree with you there. 

Quote
These "excuses" could be applied to adults as well. Look at things from a different perspective, such as spousal abuse. How many women get beat up by their partners for being late? I guess it's okay to beat them up. They're just women, after all. How often do you see men humiliating their wives in public? Well, they deserve it. They are probably not obedient.

If a man is humiliated by a woman in public, usually people thinks he deserves it.   To see evidence of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hn-wL6hPq8

Well, that is wrong, and what exactly does it have to do with how wrong male abuse of women is?  They're both wrong.  Male physical abuse of women is, however, much more common and results in a LOT more deaths all over the world.  Anyway.

Back in the day in the West, we used to have things like public whippings and stocks and other real physical punishment of adults.  And students were physically beaten in schools.  Today, not so much.  If you commit rape you go to jail, and other than physically dragging you there, the police actually cannot legally enact a physical 'punishment' on you.   Likewise, out-of-control kids go to detention or correctional schools or something similar--they aren't beaten.  I also don't believe they still publicly flog adult miscreants in South Korea anymore either.   ;D  But there continue to be TONS of incidents of violence against students by teachers in their public schools.  It is indeed a weird double standard. 

Offline therock

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #98 on: May 05, 2011, 10:13:39 pm »
Every teacher in any country or culture will experience situations where he is tempted by a student or students to lose his cool.  It's up to the teacher as an adult and a professional to make sure that he doesn't take action in the heat of the moment.  Anger causes sane people to do crazy things.

Offline kerrym

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Re: Footage showing teacher beating student causes stir
« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2011, 01:20:40 am »
As an older teacher from America, I have grown up in, been subjected to, and witnessed the spectrum of discipline in the educational realm.

I grew up with an alcoholic father who was terribly brutal to my mother and to my brothers and me. One of the reasons I never married was my fear that I could somehow become a father like him. When I became a teacher, I realized that some children misbehave because it is their only means of getting any attention, either negative or positive. I was paddled in elementary school and in high school, and, as I look back, I deserved it, even though more positive measures could have been equally effective. But, at the time it was culturally acceptable to hit children.

 However, as a teacher in America and in Korea for several years, I could never hit a child, no matter how I angry I get. That said, if a child or adult is out of control there are times when physical force (not brutality) can be the only choice. In the case of this video, there was brutality, not discipline. The teacher was angry and out of control and she physically abused the boy and abused her power and position as a teacher. The boy was already humiliated in front of his peers and the slaps and kicks did nothing positive to help the situation nor the education of the boy or the other children.

In my opinion (which granted is rather idealistic) the world has enough violence on every level, from the classroom to the battlefield, and anything we can do as teachers to eliminate the perpetuation of the mythology  that power equals right, is a service to our students, to Korea and to the world. The teacher in the video had the power to hit the child, but she also had the power to teach him and the other children that there are other ways to deal with difficult situations.

Last year, a fourth grade student at my school was caught stealing at school twice. His homeroom teacher called his parents after the second incident. That day, he went home and jumped to his death from the thirteenth story window of his apartment. I constantly wonder if he was as afraid of the physical retribution of his father as I had been of mine.

I don't want my students to be afraid of me. I want them to respect me enough to not want to disappoint me and I want them to be proud of themselves when they achieve and please me. That's the only "power" a teacher should want or need.