Author Topic: The changing role of South Korean Women  (Read 5946 times)

Offline mcfearless999

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The changing role of South Korean Women
« on: May 30, 2011, 12:07:03 pm »
After being inspired by the thread about Korea reaching a tipping point,
( http://waygook.org/index.php/topic,12710.0.html ) I wanted to hopefully more insightful conversation by starting a new topic of discussion.

During my time here in Korea (14 months) it is very clear that Korea is going through a major time of transition as far as opening up culturally. However it is also clear that many Koreans would rather cling to traditions even in the cases where it might hold them back. I feel that women are somewhat caught in the middle between traditions and new cultural ideas as well as education and economic necessity.

As far as I can tell (You are all welcome to correct preconceived notions) women are held in a more subservient position. Traditional roles of staying at home to raise the children are alive and well here. Although it goes beyond that as well for single women. Unmarried women are expected to live at home until marriage regardless if they are in their 30s, possibly 40s. While living at home women are still subject to rules dictated by parents. Conflicts often arise when working late hours for a company while still having to be home by a curfew. It seems there are cultural trends working against a womans independence while economically it is becoming more of a need.

There are also many cases of women traveling abroad for university or work and gaining independence only to lose it once again when they return home. I would imagine after one or two years of living on one's own, it would be very difficult to no longer be able to make decisions for oneself.

My question is, how do you see the role of women changing in Korea and what steps will it take? I doubt there will be demonstrations similar to the feminist bra burning demonstrations in the 60's but I can't see this as a case where the older generation will simply no longer feel the need to control their daughters life.


Offline woman-king

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2011, 12:19:08 pm »
The more Korea Westernizes, the more things will change for women.  I feel like there is a marked difference in the attitudes/confidence/self-presentation of my middle-school girl students versus my 20something female Korean friends.  The younger girls seem much more outgoing, outwardly confident, less intentionally cutesy/extremely feminine--in general, more Westernized.

Offline AP

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2011, 12:20:50 pm »
As with any group, it varies a lot.  I know of one Korean woman who lives with her parents and hates it.  She lived in the UK for a few years but her mother "forbade" her from not only having non-Korean boyfriends but making friends in general (unless they were Korean expats).  Of course, she did both of these things.  She hates living with her mother but sufgfers anyway for whatever reason.  I met her for drinks one time and she ended up lying to her parents about seeing me (we weren't even dating).

Then I know another Korean woman who went off and married an American guy (and previously dated a New Zeland guy) against her mother's wishes.  She also converted to Christianity which her mother warned was "a religion of sex and drugs" which I found really funny.  She ended up not giving a fig what her parents said and lived her own life.

Then, I'm sure, there are the traditional girls who stay at home and don't interact with outsiders.  I, of course, would not have the chance to meet them.

So yeah, there are many variations.

Offline Yu_Bumsuk

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2011, 12:21:57 pm »
If Korean women want to gain a lot more independence and be viewed on a more equal level as men there's one obvious solution: military service. I'm sure that all Korean women would agree, wouldn't they?  ;D

Offline wafflebunny

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 12:28:09 pm »
One of my co-teachers, the youngest one, lives on her own independently in Daejeon (which I like, because Daejeon is more formal than places like Seoul or Busan). She visits her family twice a month. Her parents are not bothered by it and she told me that her mother told her, "I understand you are very tired from working so much, so if you want to rest, I want you to." I told my KT that she was blessed to have a very understanding mother like she has. Whereas one of my friends who is a Gyopo from Canada, he hates it here in Korea because his extended family here demands ALL of his free time and he has to lie in order to get time to himself.

I also have a friend here who I used to teach winter camp with. She is 38 and just had her first baby. She was married two years ago. She got married when she wanted to and had her baby when she wanted. She is so happy about it. She's very realistic and admitted, "Yes, marriage is hard but I got married when I wanted."

The thing is I notice a difference in the personality of Korean women who are more independent minded then those who are followers of tradition. Independent Korean women to me seem, well, happier but more critical of their country.

Offline NZ4Life

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2011, 12:28:23 pm »
The more Korea Westernizes, the more things will change for women.  I feel like there is a marked difference in the attitudes/confidence/self-presentation of my middle-school girl students versus my 20something female Korean friends.  The younger girls seem much more outgoing, outwardly confident, less intentionally cutesy/extremely feminine--in general, more Westernized.
i'm not sure where people get this idea that westernization will be the great liberator of korea. personally i think it will go in the way of japan; they will take western things, make it their own, but keep things relatively conservative/traditional.

moreover, why do you believe being "cutesy/extremely feminine" is some how "intentional" (i'm interpreting this as forced.) i don't think it's anymore intentional than western women's inclination towards extroverted expression. why are the feminine ways of korea "extreme" and western femininity the moderate degree of expression?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:53:29 pm by xblindx »
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Offline wafflebunny

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 12:30:01 pm »
The more Korea Westernizes, the more things will change for women.  I feel like there is a marked difference in the attitudes/confidence/self-presentation of my middle-school girl students versus my 20something female Korean friends.  The younger girls seem much more outgoing, outwardly confident, less intentionally cutesy/extremely feminine--in general, more Westernized.

Yes! Like my tomboy students who hate dolls (even though I love dolls), play soccer with the boys and are feisty! I love it!  :D They are so cute! I think tomboys are so cute! I used to be tomboyish when I was a kid but also girly when it came to dolls and cute things.

Offline NZ4Life

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2011, 12:34:20 pm »
After being inspired by the thread about Korea reaching a tipping point,
( http://waygook.org/index.php/topic,12710.0.html ) I wanted to hopefully more insightful conversation by starting a new topic of discussion.

During my time here in Korea (14 months) it is very clear that Korea is going through a major time of transition as far as opening up culturally. However it is also clear that many Koreans would rather cling to traditions even in the cases where it might hold them back. I feel that women are somewhat caught in the middle between traditions and new cultural ideas as well as education and economic necessity.

As far as I can tell (You are all welcome to correct preconceived notions) women are held in a more subservient position. Traditional roles of staying at home to raise the children are alive and well here. Although it goes beyond that as well for single women. Unmarried women are expected to live at home until marriage regardless if they are in their 30s, possibly 40s. While living at home women are still subject to rules dictated by parents. Conflicts often arise when working late hours for a company while still having to be home by a curfew. It seems there are cultural trends working against a womans independence while economically it is becoming more of a need.

There are also many cases of women traveling abroad for university or work and gaining independence only to lose it once again when they return home. I would imagine after one or two years of living on one's own, it would be very difficult to no longer be able to make decisions for oneself.

My question is, how do you see the role of women changing in Korea and what steps will it take? I doubt there will be demonstrations similar to the feminist bra burning demonstrations in the 60's but I can't see this as a case where the older generation will simply no longer feel the need to control their daughters life.
personally i believe everything you mentioned will mostly be a function of economics. the whole staying at home thing, sexual liberation, etc. doesn't necessarily need to be a matter of "feminism" but a matter of what makes sense economically for them. does it make sense to drop 60mil on a studio when you can stay at home rent free and save money at the cost of some freedoms? i'd say maybe yes. moreover, marriage in this country is seen as a public event, not a private occurence. it's not as easy as what a woman wants (or what a man wants for that matter) but how direct families will look and benefit. does it make sense economically to sleep around freely at the chance of getting pregnant? that, i'm not sure of. it could be for some women?

it's definitely not as easy as bringing/exposing koreans western things/ideas.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:39:06 pm by xblindx »
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Offline hankmcmasters

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2011, 12:43:01 pm »
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html
i know this is about a chinese woman, but i think the same thing applies to some moms in korea.
i'm pretty sure that forcing moms to quit work so they can take care of their children is the reason most korean children are fairly well behaved.  but i also think it means a lot less people are having babies.

anyways, changing role for women?  i think everyone's role is chaging, because the world is changing
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Offline NZ4Life

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2011, 12:48:45 pm »
"As far as I can tell (You are all welcome to correct preconceived notions) women are held in a more subservient position. Traditional roles of staying at home to raise the children are alive and well here. Although it goes beyond that as well for single women."

How do "traditional roles", as you put it, make women subservient? Are child rearing and home making not useful and valuable occupations in and of themselves?
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Offline shkim85

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 12:50:42 pm »
there's still a lot of women who are stay at home moms but i see that changing
more females are getting a college education thus more competitive in the job fields and i believe that the coming generations roles would be shared as far as the bread winner

Offline minamteacher

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2011, 01:24:39 pm »
A great part of the reason so many western women have taken up work in our home countries is the systemised (ie, purposely built into the economic order) inflation that has slowed the growth in real living standards over the last 30-40 years. Of course a great part of women want to have a career and to provide for their families, but I'm sure many would stay at home if that were an economic possibility.

Korea's rises in living standards have far outstripped inflation in the last 30 or so years, but they have the same system as us, so those gains will and are slowing. More women will take to the workforce simply to maintain the current gains in living standards. Unless the inflationary pressure is abolished.

Many people, no matter their gender, would stay home if economically possible. In other words, you are making a gender assumption in the very wording of your argument. Also, I agree that 'child rearing and home making is a useful and valuable occupation' for BOTH genders.
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Offline summerthyme

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2011, 02:00:43 pm »
"As far as I can tell (You are all welcome to correct preconceived notions) women are held in a more subservient position. Traditional roles of staying at home to raise the children are alive and well here. Although it goes beyond that as well for single women."

How do "traditional roles", as you put it, make women subservient? Are child rearing and home making not useful and valuable occupations in and of themselves?

Perhaps the OP meant that women are automatically assumed to take these roles as opposed to their male partners who are automatically assumed to continue with their careers.  If both members of a couple were successful in their careers, it would be more likely in Korea that the woman would be encouraged to stay home and care for the family.
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Offline Davox

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2011, 02:08:57 pm »

If Korean women want to gain a lot more independence and be viewed on a more equal level as men there's one obvious solution: military service. I'm sure that all Korean women would agree, wouldn't they?  ;D

I'm sure many would.  I'm also sure many men, including those serving currently, would vehemently disagree.  Kind of like how many western nations generally don't allow women in combat roles, even when they want to be in such roles.

"As far as I can tell (You are all welcome to correct preconceived notions) women are held in a more subservient position. Traditional roles of staying at home to raise the children are alive and well here. Although it goes beyond that as well for single women."

How do "traditional roles", as you put it, make women subservient? Are child rearing and home making not useful and valuable occupations in and of themselves?

I am not an expert, and I'm sure someone can explain this better, but here goes...
Subservience has nothing to do with the importance of the role to society.  It has everything to do with the choices and freedoms (both economic and otherwise) that one personally loses when one accepts a role.  Anyone who chooses to stay at home and raise children exclusively (which is the traditional role for one of the genders) is going to be entirely dependent on the partner who works to provide the very means of survival (food, shelter, etc).  Dependence tends to create a power imbalance, power imbalances tend to create subservience.

Offline mcfearless999

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2011, 02:09:45 pm »
Quote
"As far as I can tell (You are all welcome to correct preconceived notions) women are held in a more subservient position.
Traditional roles of staying at home to raise the children are alive and well here. Although it goes beyond that as well for single women."
Quote

Perhaps the OP meant that women are automatically assumed to take these roles as opposed to their male partners who are automatically assumed to continue with their careers.  If both members of a couple were successful in their careers, it would be more likely in Korea that the woman would be encouraged to stay home and care for the family.

My apologies, I was writing in haste during my lunch break so it ended being a bit ambiguous. The Mod had the right idea. I don't see anything wrong with a woman choosing to stay home and raise her children, as long as its her choice. Ideally I would hope that raising children and taking care of the home would become a shared responsibility.

Offline Yu_Bumsuk

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2011, 02:48:46 pm »

If Korean women want to gain a lot more independence and be viewed on a more equal level as men there's one obvious solution: military service. I'm sure that all Korean women would agree, wouldn't they?  ;D

I'm sure many would.  I'm also sure many men, including those serving currently, would vehemently disagree.  Kind of like how many western nations generally don't allow women in combat roles, even when they want to be in such roles.

The vast majority of women cannot do one pull-up wearing no gear. Hence they are basically a liability for fighting in built-up areas and hence most militaries don't want them in combat roles. They are quite capable of driving trucks, guarding posts, or blowing a whistle at a subway station, and yet I don't exactly see them clamouring to do this for free for two years.

Offline mr sam teacher

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2011, 03:01:41 pm »
It's not an assumption, it's a fact. For 300,000 years (longer, I don't know) men brought home the bacon, women raised the kids and cooked the bacon. Obviously there were societies that were exceptions and also some cross overs of roles (eg the so-called "gay" caveman they dug up the other day (however absurd that may be)). Only in the last 50 years has this paradigm shifted to any great extent.

Sheesh. You just stepped in a big ol stinking pile of stuff that a dog leaves on the sidewalk. What you wrote was accepted as gospel in anthropology in about 1950. What later anthropologists realized was that that idea shows FAR more about social norms of the 1950's than it does about actual lifestyles in the past. What both archaeological and ethnographic evidence from hunter-gatherer cultures shows is that some gender-based division of labor existed, but it generally was not nearly as simple as "men bring home the bacon, women watch the kids." In fact, both genders were heavily involved in subsistence activities. In most village-level societies, it's more like "parents bring home the bacon, grandparents watch the kids."
Also, patriarchal systems DEFINITELY make women subservient. Korean Confucianism is rigidly patriarchal. If a woman freely chooses to forgo an outside career and stay home, that is wonderful. But when a woman who enjoys her career and wishes to pursue it is FORCED to abandon it by her family, that is a different story.

Offline odie

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2011, 03:45:43 pm »
I used to ask my adult students in the states about this. I had mostly young to middle-aged mothers and university students.

The mothers told me that they were tired. Tired because they had to fulfill the wife/mother/housekeeper role by making breakfast, getting the kids ready, etc. etc. and then go to work, work all day, come home and be the mom/wife/housekeeper again. They weren't happy with their husbands who they felt only had one role. Many of them were in another country, away from their husbands, to get away from that lifestyle while educating their children.

The university students seemed in one sense not to really care and in another sense feel that their lives would just be different or that they would do it better. They weren't going to marry a man that didn't know how to do laundry or dishes.

I think that the woman's role is not as harsh now for the younger generation from what they tell me. They seem to have more freedom than even their parent's generation--I only know this by what they've told me. I don't know what the majority position is in Korea.

That said, for me the best liberation for women is choice--realistic choice. If she can choose her life--to be a mother and keep her house, then she should be able to. If she chooses to be a doctor, she should be able to. As long as she (and he, for that matter) is responsible in those choices and cares about the people it affects (ie their children), then people should be free to do what good they are capable of.

Offline DevilMogun

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2011, 03:52:39 pm »
"As far as I can tell (You are all welcome to correct preconceived notions) women are held in a more subservient position. Traditional roles of staying at home to raise the children are alive and well here. Although it goes beyond that as well for single women."

How do "traditional roles", as you put it, make women subservient? Are child rearing and home making not useful and valuable occupations in and of themselves?

An interesting and naive question.

Child rearing and home making are undoubtedly useful and valuable occupations in the sense that reading or learning how to use the internet are useful and valuable occupations, requiring specific learned skills and should not to be underestimated in any sense.  However, it is not an occupation in an economic sense in that there is no financial reward for being a housewife and mother. 

Of course a good.husband will share his income with his wife, but as an 'occupation' it provides little job security, control over working conditions, pension plan, career progression, freedom to earn or save from remuneration etc etc.  A husband as a sole source of income has the potential to become the worst kind of 'employer'.  We all need to earn a living and are therefore  subservient to our 'boss' to a degree', we need to do a good job, toe the line and keep him sweet or we're out on our ear. The difference is we can change jobs (by and large) and find something else if they become too hideous (by and large).  For a housewife in a society where there are few other alternatives to marriage as a means of support and is entirely economically dependent on her husband, she is at his mercy.

Given the option I am sure many mothers (or fathers) would choose to stay at home and focus on raising a family if all financial considerations for now and the future were guaranteed. Most of us don't have a family trust fund to rely on.

The other option of choosing to be supported entirely by another individual is a risky busines.  Social constraints and norms about marriage, divorce, parental obligation are societies way of managing that risk.  As societies change (becoming more nuclear, divorce more common and a million other factors that mean we are no longer part of a family/village any security a woman had as a wife and mother becomes eroded. 

The third possibility is that woman get a second string for their bow - she makes sure she is employable as possible in the economic world in case her husband withdraws his support at some point in the future.

This is what Korea is dealing with - moving from the confines and comforts of a closely woven society to a looser, less safe but less restricting society similar to those in Western countries.  Women have to choose wisely about their future which for many will mean not risk being dependent on and potentially subservient to a man who may not stay around to support her all her life.  As social bonds loosen women can and have to invest less in being attractive to a man as a means of support and more in developing economically sounds skills.

 
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Offline flippinmusician7

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Re: The changing role of South Korean Women
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2011, 03:59:05 pm »

The vast majority of women cannot do one pull-up wearing no gear. Hence they are basically a liability for fighting in built-up areas and hence most militaries don't want them in combat roles. They are quite capable of driving trucks, guarding posts, or blowing a whistle at a subway station, and yet I don't exactly see them clamouring to do this for free for two years.

I'm sorry, but when was the last time "doing a pull-up" prevented anyone from getting hurt on a battlefield? I could understand your statement if you said women couldn't "climb" as well as their male counterparts, but even then you would be wrong. It is a small percentage of the population in general that has the physical ability to be a soldier, gender aside.

I grew up in a military family, and I can keep pace with my MP brother, Drill Sgt. Father, and 3 of my military trained uncles. To assume that women cannot "hold their own" in combat situations is archaic, at best.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 04:00:58 pm by flippinmusician7 »