Harrasment: How would you react?

[KLM]

The plural of anecdote isn't data, and I'm not a woman, but I know of three women in the Daegu August 2010 EPIK teachers group who have been victimized by Korean men. One woman was pinned against a wall and molested by a Korean man. Another woman had to change apartments because she had a stalker/peeping tom. The third woman was punched in the back, hard, by an ajeossi who thought she took too much time getting off the bus.

I don't know exactly how many women were in that EPIK group, but I estimate that there were 175 teachers total. Assuming that half of them were women, that makes 87 female teachers. So, within one year, at least 3.5% of that EPIK group's female teachers have suffered harassment by Korean men.

[Jozigirl]

......self-defense is all about punching and kicking, you would be mistaken. A lot of the stuff that I saw was about body language and avoidance tactics so you can scare of a predator before it comes to physical intrusion.
.....try look up some youtube videos on the subject!

What good proactive advice!!

I do want to add. If I'd known Korea was like this ( that I would of be treated as I am) I sort of wonder if I would of chosen Korea.
I think I really need to meet some nice Korean men. If I know 20 nice Korean men I'll forget the 1 or 2 who are horrible.

Not all Korean men are awful or think that western women are easy.  After all, men are men before they are Korean and I know lots of really great guys who just happen to be Korean...

[sophia]

I punched a guy in the stomach and told him to fight me. I put my fists up and he ran away. I yelled "yea you run home to your mommy!"

He understood "pfiting".

I flipped one off and started him down for about 30 seconds. I won the staring contest AND the finger is a universal language, wored really well.

I stomped in the subway SO LOUD that everyone had to look up from their ipads to see what was happening. I sat on the opposide side of the seats, pointed at the perv who was following me.


You can also add a nice "f**** you" everyone understands that.

Don't take any of it, not even the innapropirate staring or the noises they make when they walk by you.
stay safe y'alls.

[unknownx]

I punched a guy in the stomach and told him to fight me. I put my fists up and he ran away. I yelled "yea you run home to your mommy!"

He understood "pfiting".

I flipped one off and started him down for about 30 seconds. I won the staring contest AND the finger is a universal language, wored really well.

I stomped in the subway SO LOUD that everyone had to look up from their ipads to see what was happening. I sat on the opposide side of the seats, pointed at the perv who was following me.


You can also add a nice "f**** you" everyone understands that.

Don't take any of it, not even the innapropirate staring or the noises they make when they walk by you.
stay safe y'alls.

You go girl.

[Jozigirl]

I've had a drunk guy try to get into my apartment one night because he thought it was his...

This has happend twice to me: once by the ajoshie who used to lived directly above me, and once by two unknown ajummas. I think it's just drunken stupidity. How do you figure it was harrasment?

I don't view this particular incident as harrassment.  It was simply an example of how, after so many other incidents of harrassment, having something as 'innocent' as this happen can still be unnerving.  I do think that the guy who tried to get into my apartment that night was simply drunk and it was just an unfortunate experience that can, and does, happen often. 

[woman-king]

I punched a guy in the stomach and told him to fight me. I put my fists up and he ran away. I yelled "yea you run home to your mommy!"

He understood "pfiting".

I flipped one off and started him down for about 30 seconds. I won the staring contest AND the finger is a universal language, wored really well.

I stomped in the subway SO LOUD that everyone had to look up from their ipads to see what was happening. I sat on the opposide side of the seats, pointed at the perv who was following me.


You can also add a nice "f**** you" everyone understands that.

Don't take any of it, not even the innapropirate staring or the noises they make when they walk by you.
stay safe y'alls.

I feel like pointing and public shaming might be effective--but so far I found stonewalling creepers who've followed/tried to accost me to work.  I am not sure I would want something to be escalated into a violent confrontation since, in my case, I'd most likely lose.  :( 

[isitadream]

I have only been here a few months and have already heard many stories about western women being harassed by Korean men. Why? Are Western women a "target?"

What about Korean women? I have not heard seen anything so far. One of my friends saw a girl get shoved onto a traffic street by her boyfriend... but that's the only abuse story I've heard.

But... and I don't want to generalize here but I'm gonna go ahead... the ridiculously slutty outfits? the insanely high heels? The pouty lips and the baby talk and skirts that show your buttcrack?

Back home, a woman who might dress in revealing, attention-grabbing outfits would easily put herself at a higher risk for abuse or stalking or perverted actions of any sort.  What is the difference here?

[jchoi911]

not just foreigner women, I think Korean women are targets too,  I've seen Adjumma's being harassed/bothered by drunk men. We just don't hear about it often because it's taboo to talk about it. Maybe they discussed this on other Korean websites.

Here's some helpful tips:

Don't look like an easy target: (Look confident)
Most of the time rape is power assertion, Oppression of people in this country perhaps cause them to "rebel" after getting drunk.

Fight your way out if needed: Don't be afraid to get into people's faces

Be physically prepared:
Learn some self defense (preferably Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, most street reliable self defense)

[donuts81]

EXACTLY!  It is beyond me why this is totally ignored at orientations and by recruiters here.  Women going virtually anywhere else--South America, India, the Middle East, hell, even Italy or Spain get intensive training by the companies, organizations or schools that they go with.  Why the blind eye here?

Ummmm you're surprised? If SMOE or GEPIK were to run a women's safety training course it would mean that they thought that there was a problem. They would never admit to this in a million years.

Back to the point, I think there has been a lot of good advice been given. I thought getting a whistle was a good idea, you could hear that for miles and taking a picture of a taxi's number plate before getting in alone and/or drunk sounds sensible as well.

I would say that Korea is slightly different from what you would expect at home. To any person who does find themselves in a bad situation I would suggest a firm F### off!! It's international. If that doesn't do the trick just generally being loud and drawing as much attention to yourself and the perpetrator as possible. Physical violence (ball kicking) is alway an option when in a dangerous situation but I wouldn't recommend just slapping a guy for getting fresh here. Violence (slapping/punching) against women isn't unheard of in Korea and other people may or may not step in to help you if your creep suddenly turns into a bully. Doubly frustrating is in a situation like this your words probably aren't going to hold any weight with the police unless you can get some Korean eyewitnesses.

Also I'm assuming the same assault laws would apply where if you did seriously hurt someone then you would be held responsible for their injuries even if they attacked you first (try not to stab em). I imagine as well that the legal system here is not all that progressive when it comes to protecting women. I only say this because It hasn't been all that long since a man couldn't be charged with rape if the women was his wife so it's just a best guess.

[hunterst]

I punched a guy in the stomach and told him to fight me. I put my fists up and he ran away. I yelled "yea you run home to your mommy!"

He understood "pfiting".

I flipped one off and started him down for about 30 seconds. I won the staring contest AND the finger is a universal language, wored really well.

I stomped in the subway SO LOUD that everyone had to look up from their ipads to see what was happening. I sat on the opposide side of the seats, pointed at the perv who was following me.


You can also add a nice "f**** you" everyone understands that.

Don't take any of it, not even the innapropirate staring or the noises they make when they walk by you.
stay safe y'alls.

I feel like pointing and public shaming might be effective--but so far I found stonewalling creepers who've followed/tried to accost me to work.  I am not sure I would want something to be escalated into a violent confrontation since, in my case, I'd most likely lose.  :(

Somehow seeing that this seems that this happens to you on multiple occasions, maybe you're over reacting.  I mean I'm not sure what happened, but if you were doing that over someone starign or making a noise like you alluded to then that sort of behaviour is uncalled for and obnoxious, and you might need a thicker skin.

[dlongstaff]

I know this statistic might be a little dated, but I think it is just as relevant as it was when first published.   About 7-8 years ago in the Korea Herald they printed a "crime clock" showing on average how often certain crimes occured in Korea;  it stated that a rape occured every 77 minutes.  Now, remember that would only include those reported...making the actual number probably much higher.  Of course, the scary thing is the time factor has probably decreased since it was first printed.

 The article surprised me somewhat, not for the actual stats, but for the fact they actually printed it.  Most Korean english newspapers don't really like to print too much that may portray Korea in a negative light...gotta keep up appearances for all that FDI (foreign direct investment ;)     Now, I only say that the stats didn't surprise because I had been in Korea for almost three years by that time, and knowing what things can be like here for foreigners, and even Koreans at times, despite best  efforts to avoid certain situations. Unfortunately, anyone can be a target of aggression, and foreigners can be easy targets because, for the most part, we lack a support structure. However, after a while  "misunderstanding" or any other feigning as an explanation do not seem to cut-it.   As for the authorties, well, it seems they would much rather just not deal with foreigners even if we are in the right.

[woman-king]

EXACTLY!  It is beyond me why this is totally ignored at orientations and by recruiters here.  Women going virtually anywhere else--South America, India, the Middle East, hell, even Italy or Spain get intensive training by the companies, organizations or schools that they go with.  Why the blind eye here?

Ummmm you're surprised? If SMOE or GEPIK were to run a women's safety training course it would mean that they thought that there was a problem. They would never admit to this in a million years.
Back to the point, I think there has been a lot of good advice been given. I thought getting a whistle was a good idea, you could hear that for miles and taking a picture of a taxi's number plate before getting in alone and/or drunk sounds sensible as well.

I would say that Korea is slightly different from what you would expect at home. To any person who does find themselves in a bad situation I would suggest a firm F### off!! It's international. If that doesn't do the trick just generally being loud and drawing as much attention to yourself and the perpetrator as possible. Physical violence (ball kicking) is alway an option when in a dangerous situation but I wouldn't recommend just slapping a guy for getting fresh here. Violence (slapping/punching) against women isn't unheard of in Korea and other people may or may not step in to help you if your creep suddenly turns into a bully. Doubly frustrating is in a situation like this your words probably aren't going to hold any weight with the police unless you can get some Korean eyewitnesses.

Also I'm assuming the same assault laws would apply where if you did seriously hurt someone then you would be held responsible for their injuries even if they attacked you first (try not to stab em). I imagine as well that the legal system here is not all that progressive when it comes to protecting women. I only say this because It hasn't been all that long since a man couldn't be charged with rape if the women was his wife so it's just a best guess.

I know they're all for saving face and promoting the image of Korea.  It's still totally illogical to me that it isn't touched upon, even in a sort of roundabout, face-saving kind of way, but I suppose I shouldn't expect too much. 

I do think you are right about when/how to use violence to defend yourself.  I simply don't believe non-Koreans are always given fair trials here--too many stories to the contrary--so the idea that we should immediately start hitting men if they get up in our space is a little misguided.  Of course, when it comes down to it, I guess I'd rather be fined/jailed than dead . . .  :(

[southernman]

I've known of 3 different western females who've either woken up to find a Korean man trying to break into their apartment,  or woken up with a Korean man standing beside their bed and horribly one women who was raped.

I've heard countless stories where western women have been hassled or groped on the street.

I once saw a Korean woman be subtlety groped by an older Korean man, on the subway in Seoul, she actually moved and stood closer to me.

I also think that during Orientation this subject should be addressed.  There are some western Ladies I've met that have  just casually mentioned that they leave their apartments opened sometimes when they're out.   I'm not saying it's a major issue here but its certainly an an issue that needs to be discussed more

[secondtimelucky]

I can't believe some of the guys here making out like it's:
1. No big deal
or
2. The same thing can happen to us men so it's not a sex-issue

Come on lads, wake up. Simply because culture denotes that this kind of thing might be more prevalent/not reported so much doesn't mean that it isn't a serious issue. Furthermore, it quite clearly ISN'T the same for men. Because when a woman feels you up, although it might be damned embarrassing all round, you don't have the threat of rape hanging in the air. We simply couldn't possibly feel the fear that a woman might feel in the same situation.

Second, if anyone is so naive to claim that Korean culture means that this kind of thing is acceptable is actually doing a disservice to the nation that we live in, because it's simply not true. The majority of the chaps at my school would die of shame before acting in such an outwardly provocative manner, and they and definitely the female Koreans I know would tell you to scream and shout and very much make a big deal out of it, if something bad were to happen.

(Though as has been said I wouldn't start swinging for the fences, you don't wanna be paying hospital bills)

[jaspar]

...woken up with a Korean man standing beside their bed...

 :o

I don't think I'd ever go to sleep again if I woke up like that.

[woman-king]

I've known of 3 different western females who've either woken up to find a Korean man trying to break into their apartment,  or woken up with a Korean man standing beside their bed and horribly one women who was raped.

I've heard countless stories where western women have been hassled or groped on the street.

I once saw a Korean woman be subtlety groped by an older Korean man, on the subway in Seoul, she actually moved and stood closer to me.

I also think that during Orientation this subject should be addressed.  There are some western Ladies I've met that have  just casually mentioned that they leave their apartments opened sometimes when they're out.   I'm not saying it's a major issue here but its certainly an an issue that needs to be discussed more

You don't need to share names, of course, but was the person you know who was raped the South African with the last name Brouard that was mentioned on this thread before, or was it someone different?  She is not the only foreign-woman rape case I've read about in SK--besides the woman in Anyang I also read a thread on another forum about a foreign woman being pulled into a car in Ulsan, I believe, and raped by a Korean man.

Also, although not as relevant, still worth pointing out that there was a British woman in JET who was murdered by a Japanese man a year or two ago.  East Asia may have stronger gun controls and lower crime rates overall, but if you are in a sort of 'target demographic'--for example, being a Western-looking female--those statistics aren't really applicable to your situation.

I don't bring this up because I want to fearmonger but like you said, there is a lot of misinformation about safety for women here.  (And, really, safety for foreign men too--who gets told they could be attacked for walking down the street with a Korean woman?  But, that deserves its own thread).  I have heard so many female NETs say/write that they feel safer here than at home, they wander around dark streets at night, leave their doors unlocked, etc.  At the very least, having ONE training course at Orientation addressing the fact that hey, many of you are young women living on your own in a foreign country and here are some ways to protect yourself, and some info on what to do if assaulted would be a good idea.  Again, I cannot think of another program or organization that would hire 20somethings with little travel experience, have them live alone, and not include basic safety along with all their other cultural-sensitivity training.

[sophia]

I punched a guy in the stomach and told him to fight me. I put my fists up and he ran away. I yelled "yea you run home to your mommy!"

He understood "pfiting".

I flipped one off and started him down for about 30 seconds. I won the staring contest AND the finger is a universal language, wored really well.

I stomped in the subway SO LOUD that everyone had to look up from their ipads to see what was happening. I sat on the opposide side of the seats, pointed at the perv who was following me.


You can also add a nice "f**** you" everyone understands that.

Don't take any of it, not even the innapropirate staring or the noises they make when they walk by you.
stay safe y'alls.

I feel like pointing and public shaming might be effective--but so far I found stonewalling creepers who've followed/tried to accost me to work.  I am not sure I would want something to be escalated into a violent confrontation since, in my case, I'd most likely lose.  :(

Somehow seeing that this seems that this happens to you on multiple occasions, maybe you're over reacting.  I mean I'm not sure what happened, but if you were doing that over someone starign or making a noise like you alluded to then that sort of behaviour is uncalled for and obnoxious, and you might need a thicker skin.

If you continue to read the thread I think you may see how bad things CAN actually get.
After being harassed and attacked multiple times I guess one's tolerance and patience starts to wear out.

I even kind of feel bad for the next person that even slightly irritates me in some way be it by touching, looking or making a slurpy breathy sound when walking past me.

I hope I can help some people on here realize that nothing you consider uncomfortable and innapropriate should be tolerated.

And you let everyone around you know you're not to be effed with.

[flasyb]

If you continue to read the thread I think you may see how bad things CAN actually get.
After being harassed and attacked multiple times I guess one's tolerance and patience starts to wear out

I bet it does! I've had physical attacks by men trying to prove themselves on a night out, got my rear end kicked a few times and my nose broken, and my patience is pretty thin for obvious douche bags.

I even kind of feel bad for the next person that even slightly irritates me in some way be it by touching, looking or making a slurpy breathy sound when walking past me.

I hope I can help some people on here realize that nothing you consider uncomfortable and innapropriate should be tolerated.

And you let everyone around you know you're not to be effed with.

I worry about this though. An example would be if in an Arab country, a man tried to hold my hand as he was leading me somewhere (common), would I be justified in screaming blue murder because I consider it inappropriate? I'm not so sure. People look at me all the time here in Korea and I don't give them any attitude, I just go about my business. Although if you have a nose through my shopping trolley Adjuma,  you better know I'll be looking twice as long and twice as hard through yours (and I'll be tutting twice as loud too).

I imagine most people on waygook.org already realise that some things you consider uncomfortable should be tolerated for the sake of avoiding unnecessary confrontation but things that make you feel sexually uncomfortable should not be tolerated. I don't think a good first reaction is to go crazy. For most people that would be after they had exhausted other means of solving the problem.

I even kind of feel bad for the next person that even slightly irritates me in some way be it by touching, looking or making a slurpy breathy sound when walking past me

Wow! What will you do to the next person who slightly irritates you?

[southernman]

I've known of 3 different western females who've either woken up to find a Korean man trying to break into their apartment,  or woken up with a Korean man standing beside their bed and horribly one women who was raped.

I've heard countless stories where western women have been hassled or groped on the street.

I once saw a Korean woman be subtlety groped by an older Korean man, on the subway in Seoul, she actually moved and stood closer to me.

I also think that during Orientation this subject should be addressed.  There are some western Ladies I've met that have  just casually mentioned that they leave their apartments opened sometimes when they're out.   I'm not saying it's a major issue here but its certainly an an issue that needs to be discussed more

You don't need to share names, of course, but was the person you know who was raped the South African with the last name Brouard that was mentioned on this thread before, or was it someone different?  She is not the only foreign-woman rape case I've read about in SK--besides the woman in Anyang I also read a thread on another forum about a foreign woman being pulled into a car in Ulsan, I believe, and raped by a Korean man.

Also, although not as relevant, still worth pointing out that there was a British woman in JET who was murdered by a Japanese man a year or two ago.  East Asia may have stronger gun controls and lower crime rates overall, but if you are in a sort of 'target demographic'--for example, being a Western-looking female--those statistics aren't really applicable to your situation.

I don't bring this up because I want to fearmonger but like you said, there is a lot of misinformation about safety for women here.  (And, really, safety for foreign men too--who gets told they could be attacked for walking down the street with a Korean woman?  But, that deserves its own thread).  I have heard so many female NETs say/write that they feel safer here than at home, they wander around dark streets at night, leave their doors unlocked, etc.  At the very least, having ONE training course at Orientation addressing the fact that hey, many of you are young women living on your own in a foreign country and here are some ways to protect yourself, and some info on what to do if assaulted would be a good idea.  Again, I cannot think of another program or organization that would hire 20somethings with little travel experience, have them live alone, and not include basic safety along with all their other cultural-sensitivity training.

Yes, I believe that's the same lady, I didn't actually know her that well but  we had met and lived in the same city at the time.  The other two I new reasonably well.  Also, another western teacher at my Hagwon,  before I taught there,  left the country because she was getting stalked.   I'm actually amazed that some western men don't take this issue seriously.

I used to be a govt social worker back home and many other western people know that.  So maybe people just like to confide in me because they know I genuinely care and will keep and do keep something told to me in confidence.

To be politically incorrect, if I may,  only a true redneck  looser would dismiss this issue. as unimportant  Even your average low bred  troll would stay clear...

[Harlequin]

I didn't mention this in the other thread because I was really torn about sharing and it was just a terrible experience...

My first semester teaching I was invited out by a male co-teacher. I had brought my boyfriend and I was really looking forward to going out because he was the only co-teacher at the time who wanted to know me outside of school. We were going to go to the noraebang.  I was excited. When he came to meet us he smelled like booze but was pretty amicable. We got into a cab together, he sat in the front and talked about school and laughed. We sang and talked together, he even gave relationship advice to my boyfriend--urging him to marry me. He seemed so cool and down to earth, he got my boyfriend to dance with me (coaching his steps) and all seemed well. That was until my boyfriend went to sing...as my boyfriend was singing I was dancing near him on his right and my co-teacher was on the left. At some point he reached behind my boyfriend and grabbed my chest. I was shocked and horrified. I stepped away and he stepped closer and give me another squeeze and tried to grab my hand-- and my boyfriend hadn't noticed a damn thing!!!! I was at a loss for words and frozen like a deer, I felt pissed and disgusted and my mind was racing--trying to figure out if I had done anything to lead him on or something. While my mind was re-booting the song ended and he excused himself to the bathroom. I weakly smiled and once the door was shut I grabbed my boyfriend and spoke quickly about what had just happened. He was shocked. But I felt so pissed off and wanted him to sock the bastard when he came back. But that would be bad because it would seem unprovoked to the Korean proprietor outside and if it came down to any intervention I would be screwed--my word against his, and he would be perceived as a nice guy because he treated us to such a "nice evening." We concluded that I was to play drunk and my bf would excuse us and we could leave without making a scene. He, however,  wanted to maintain the cool older guy facade paid the full tab and escort us home. We politely declined but he actually went so far as to walk us within a short block of our apartment and he was saying he was too drunk and it was too late to catch a cab--hinting that he wanted to sleep over. My boyfriend played the concerned guy looking out for his very ill gf and said that I would be violently ill and it wouldn't be a pretty sight. That got rid of him...but I was really scared. That night also made me resent myself for being so cowardly and my boyfriend for not beating the living day lights out of that guy.

Later, he apologized but it was so skeevy. He said that he wasn't interested in me because I was fat. But thought of me often because he was so far from his wife because of the education system moving him so far from his home city. I mentioned him to my other co-teacher but she was a new teacher and was really young and if I waited a couple of more months he would be transfered to another school. During the wait time, he  texted me--nothing bad but it was still inappropriate.  He even would drive by my house and mention that he saw my boyfriend or me. He tried to offer me a ride home on a few occasions but I politely declined. It was just so awkward and at times it seemed like he wanted to make up for his behavior even going so far as to convince my boyfriend to another noraebang sans booze and because he saw us at a cafe he joined us.  He never confessed his action to my boyfriend at either time.  I just felt really uncomfortable with him and myself.  He once even asked me about foreigners and sex ...it was awkward... all the more so because it was during a class while students were working on their projects. He was really quiet and all I could think was that this is too absurd and it can't be happening, what was I thinking when I decided to come to this country? I listened to his inquiries and tried my best to bust any rumors or misconceptions. I also told him that normally foreigners don't like to talk about that sort of thing especially in a classroom full of students even if he was whispering. It was just incredibly inappropriate. I was so relieved when the semester ended and I skipped out on the farewell dinner by feigning being sick.  That first semester filled me with self-loathing , bitterness and distrust for the whole winter vacation that followed.

I haven't let this really get me down though--I have recovered over time. I go out and I have older male Korean friends who are perfect gentleman even when drunk. They have shown me that not all guys are scum and have made my experiences in Korea better. They even safe guard me from strangers at the bar when my boyfriend is not around. I'm still paranoid but I am more guarded.