Concerned over the direction the site is taking.

[Brian]

Some of the moderators were talking about this in private earlier, but I think it's worth having a discussion in public about the changes this site has undergone in the past couple months.  People who have been here for a while have probably noticed the massive influx of new posters, foreign and Korean, and have seen that with the decline of Dave's Korea forum a lot of users have migrated here.

The site started out as a way to share lesson plans and information about stuff in Korea, but lately, in spite of some of our best efforts, it's taken over the role of Dave's ESL Cafe, a place where people kill time, argue, and vomit whatever ideas come into their head. 

We have considered various ways to fix this.  We started with public warnings and private messages to users trolling or going off-topic.  I've started temp-banning and banning the repeat offenders, and we're trying to lock or merge redundant threads to reduce clutter.  But, the feeling is still that the site has changed too much for the worse.  Long-time readers and contributors no longer are interested in visiting because they feel waygook.org has been taken over by migrants from Dave's who don't care about what this site is about, don't take the time to read through the site before posting redundant questions or off-topic threads, and who don't show much respect to the site and its users. 

We've played with the idea of removing the General Discussion forum, which seems to attract inane threads and a lot of bickering, but it'll stay for the time being.  We're working to move threads from there into the appropriate forums (for example, "WTB" threads into the buy-and-sell), merge threads on topics that come up frequently, and delete inane topics that belong on somebody's Facebook page not a teachers' resource.  Some have also suggested removing everything but the lesson plans, but that seems a little too radical for me.  As I see it, we just need to get smarter, and need to show some respect for this "great resource" by using the search function, by contributing positively, and by not burying the good stuff with whatever crap pops into our heads.

I just thought I'd bring this conversation out into the open so some of you know we feel your pain and are trying various ways to make it better.  I suppose the cynic in me should have known what some "teachers" here are capable of. 

Please share your thoughts, suggestions, or recommendations.

[pizza hamburger]

Personally, I think removing everything except lesson plans is a good idea.

[SpaceRook]

I think most people become aware of topics through the "Most Recently Updated Topics" list.  Perhaps that list can be filtered to only show topics from the important (i.e.teaching-related) forums?  That way the less appropriate posts are only visible to those searching for them. 

(I am half sleep, I meant to quote not mod edit.)

[ape510]

Can you up the amount of posts required in certain forum areas?

E.G Lesson plans and travel in Korea remains 5?
General and problem areas of the forum 20?

This might ease the flow and would mean that people would most likely have to post useful things before they can post mundane brain vomit?

Just a suggestion, hope I am not one of these offenders

[heyitslep]

Personally, I think removing everything except lesson plans is a good idea.

Hey now, there's some other sub-forums worth a dime here.

I support the idea of just doing away with the General Discussion forum. I've seen just way too many topics there that either start off with a negative tone, or quickly descend into negativity; almost every other thread there is poop flinging at something or someone.

Many of the other sub-forums within the General Category, such as BST, FAQ, and Information Technology, are really good. The topics may remain casual and subjective, such as favorite source of TV shows, yet still be informative.

Before I came here, I visited Dave's on occasion and it honestly made me not want to be here at all. If this place turns into Dave's 2.0, then there's always 4chan.

[oculisorbis]

How about making one forum a kind of 'Anything Goes' forum, where there is little to no moderation, but crack down hard on the other forums until the repeat problem offenders figure out they have a new place to go where they can play relatively freely and unencumbered by the Mod Squad?  Make it visible to members only so the hypersensitive general public won't have an aneurysm while browsing the site.  Lots of warning in a very clear manner stating that the forum is unmoderated and anyone who takes offense to anything should think twice before entering.

[kleigh]

Hi, I think this sudden influx of new posters is also to do with the new requirement..make 5 posts for access?
People may be trying to fill up their post quota by making random statements and open posts?
Have definitely noticed a change,but this site is still an amazing resource nevertheless.

[Artist Formerly Known as Moderator Jason]

I think most people become aware of topics through the "Most Recently Updated Topics" list.  Perhaps that list can be filtered to only show topics from the important (i.e.teaching-related) forums?  That way the less appropriate posts are only visible to those searching for them. 

That suggestion was brought up originally but due to programming issues, its a nightmare to implement.   
I will keep my opinions quiet for now.  I want to see how regular members feel about the situation.

[leo fuchigami]

I think most people become aware of topics through the "Most Recently Updated Topics" list.  Perhaps that list can be filtered to only show topics from the important (i.e.teaching-related) forums?  That way the less appropriate posts are only visible to those searching for them. 

That suggestion was brought up originally but due to programming issues, its a nightmare to implement.   
I will keep my opinions quiet for now.  I want to see how regular members feel about the situation.

Definitely second that. You can't stop the influx of only the unwanted users from Dave's, but what you can do is improve the perception of the site to the average user. Since the average user is exposed first and foremost to the updated feed, why not just lock out the general and wtb threads from the feed. if they're really interested in those threads they'll follow them anyways. having random people watching the feed makes it easier for them to contribute useless feedback.

you could also implement a +1/-1 button on each comment and any comment that reaches a certain negative threshold is automatically hidden until it's reviewed by a moderator. the highest rated comments could also show up at the top of the thread to increase visibility of positive contributions.

[k.l.]

Great posts. I'm afraid I have fallen into the trap of overposting on every and any topic that comes up myself. Thanks for the contributions. Time to just stick to lesson plans and ppts.

Your servers are better used to provide resources to teachers. All the answers to teachers questions that have come up on this site can easily be solved by calling their district office or immigration etc.

Thanks again mods, you are dedicated!

[leo fuchigami]

I know it's not related to this particular topic, but I'm not sure where a suggestion of this sort goes. Could you consider adding a "sort threads by..." popularity/most replied/most viewed option? it makes it a lot easier to find the cream of the crop lessons posted instead of having to manually click through every page and finding the threads with the highest reply count.

[hunterst]

maybe you could just get rid of the most recently updated bit, so that those that are easily offended don't have to see anything they don't like.  Why people who just want lessons care that much is hard to understand, don't post or look at threads that offend you.

[bmsteacher]

Some of the moderators were talking about this in private earlier, but I think it's worth having a discussion in public about the changes this site has undergone in the past couple months.  People who have been here for a while have probably noticed the massive influx of new posters, foreign and Korean, and have seen that with the decline of Dave's Korea forum a lot of users have migrated here.

The site started out as a way to share lesson plans and information about stuff in Korea, but lately, in spite of some of our best efforts, it's taken over the role of Dave's ESL Cafe, a place where people kill time, argue, and vomit whatever ideas come into their head. 

We have considered various ways to fix this.  We started with public warnings and private messages to users trolling or going off-topic.  I've started temp-banning and banning the repeat offenders, and we're trying to lock or merge redundant threads to reduce clutter.  But, the feeling is still that the site has changed too much for the worse.  Long-time readers and contributors no longer are interested in visiting because they feel waygook.org has been taken over by migrants from Dave's who don't care about what this site is about, don't take the time to read through the site before posting redundant questions or off-topic threads, and who don't show much respect to the site and its users. 

We've played with the idea of removing the General Discussion forum, which seems to attract inane threads and a lot of bickering, but it'll stay for the time being.  We're working to move threads from there into the appropriate forums (for example, "WTB" threads into the buy-and-sell), merge threads on topics that come up frequently, and delete inane topics that belong on somebody's Facebook page not a teachers' resource.  Some have also suggested removing everything but the lesson plans, but that seems a little too radical for me.  As I see it, we just need to get smarter, and need to show some respect for this "great resource" by using the search function, by contributing positively, and by not burying the good stuff with whatever crap pops into our heads.

I just thought I'd bring this conversation out into the open so some of you know we feel your pain and are trying various ways to make it better.  I suppose the cynic in me should have known what some "teachers" here are capable of. 

Please share your thoughts, suggestions, or recommendations.

Perhaps in the months and years to come the number of teachers using this site will decrease (following a general trend in the EFL industry in Korea), so too some of the 'clutter' that's been clouding waygook.org might then dissipate.  Also, if you want to put the focus back on teachers, teaching, and lessons, why not have a condition that to join the site you have to post one of your lessons to be reviewed by the moderators (or some kind of panel of teachers)? If the lesson plan and material worthy (to use a recent waygook expression) then that new user could be allowed access to the site.  Perhaps this is a bit draconian, but it might just be enough to keep away those who aren't willing to contribute in a positive and professional manner. 

[Brian]

I wonder how long it takes for this thread to be 'Locked'

Depends on how many people are actively trying to derail it (as with many other threads), I suppose. 

Thank you for your suggestions and comments so far, everyone.

[paladin777]

I think that the random topics have increased ever since the number of posts you make deems you eligible to download/post lesson plans. People just post random things to get their post count up.

I dont think its terrible that its become a forum for people to network and discuss things on. But sometimes people entertain themselves by starting arguments or fueling the fire. I cannot say I am totally innocent of this as it is tempting sometimes.

Overall though, I think the minimum post count rule is the root of all evil. I may be wrong though as I only joined a few months before the minimum post count thing was set in place.

[Brian]

I know it's not related to this particular topic, but I'm not sure where a suggestion of this sort goes. Could you consider adding a "sort threads by..." popularity/most replied/most viewed option? it makes it a lot easier to find the cream of the crop lessons posted instead of having to manually click through every page and finding the threads with the highest reply count.

Good idea.  You can already do this, though, by clicking on "replies" or "views" on the blue banner thing.  That'll order the posts in that particular forum by replies or views (or by last posted).  Of course, the most recent lessons will likely have more views than older, awesome lesson plans simply because there are a hundred times more readers now than before.

[DWAEDGIMORIGUKBAP]

No offense, but it seems painfuly obvious to me that a 'GENERAL discussion' section is for GENERAL DISCUSSION!

If you want lesson plans, or to talk about lesson planing, classroom management or how to make resources, then go to those forums.

Every site I am a member of (martial arts, e-cigs, foriegn language, guitar forums, body building etc) all have a forum where you can talk about anything (off topic) or general discussion related to the main theme which for this board would be living and teaching in South Korea as an ESL instructor!

If some people are upet by the things in general discussion - don't go to general discussion forum.  Problem solved.

Why shouldn;t we be ale to discuss things like how we del with stress, datin in the workplace etc?  They are after all related to who we are and what we do for a living. 

Also most of us or a lot of us are the only waeygooks we see or talk to all day, no surprise really we want people to talk to here.  And whomever suggested facebook - my friends back home can't realte to the stuff I post here!!!  Also they are in bed whils I want to post!!

I don't know, that is just so painfully obvious and a non issue to me that I kind of feel kind of bad at having just written the above.

No offense Brian....  If I only came here for lesson planning ec, I wouldn't ever come here as I don't need help with things like that.

I just don't see why genral discussion shouldn't take place.  Noone has to read it if they don't like it.  Aren't we all grown ups?  Can't we tolerate a little bit of what we don't agree with?  Isn't this a key to a REAL ADULT democracy and an open society rather than censorship and facism, stamping out anything we don;t like or agree with?  The fact that that is what Dave's has become is exactly why we all migrated here in fact!

[siamagoo]

maybe you could just get rid of the most recently updated bit, so that those that are easily offended don't have to see anything they don't like.  Why people who just want lessons care that much is hard to understand, don't post or look at threads that offend you.

I am 100% behind getting rid of the most-recently-updated bit. I'm afraid it has turned me into a troll. Yes, this hurts me most (wasted time) but it also hurts the site by making it so easy for people who shouldn't be involved in discussions to involve themselves in discussions.

Please Please Please Please Please get rid of the most-recently-updated bit. Or move it to the bottom. Or make an option to not have it show up when you're signed into your account.

The MRU bit is like candy in front of a sweet tooth. I know I shouldn't eat it, but I do. Yes, we should know how to control ourselves, but aparently we can't. Making the MRU bit less prominent will be a favor to me and to all the users who are frustrated at the explosion of inane topics.

(and REQUIRING people to say something before downloading was just begging for trouble. Are you really surprised that people who didn't have anything valuable to post before the rule came into effect STILL don't have anything valuable to post. And yet you're forcing them to say something, any thing, to get access to the great resources here.)

[korr]

Most of the trouble seems to come from general discussion, so maybe make a much high post count requirement for that than for the lesson plans. I also like the idea of having to post lessons before you have access to anything else, although that would have to be moderated, because there's always going to be people who post random files to get around the requirements. If you want to get really strict, implement that lesson requirement for everyone, no matter how many posts they have right now.

I wouldn't necessarily close general discussion, though. Some of the threads are pretty horrible, but there's some decent information in there too. Plus I feel like people would just start starting threads in random other places if you did.

[murmanjake]

I'm a newb here, but I've been on Dave's for a little while.  I really hope that Waygook doesn't go the way of Dave's. 

I am thankful that the mods have decided to include us in this discussion.  This shows a step in the right direction.

I'd typed out a bunch of ideas about what could be done, but they all seemed too arguable.  I guess Dave's has at least taught me that arguing on the internet is mainly pointless.  And I know that others here know much better than me about these things.  I'm not that bad at moderating discussions though, so here's an idea.

Instead of worrying about solutions, let's first take stock of the problem. I think questions are the best way to approach any problem, so here are a few of mine.  If you post an answer, why not post a question as well?

What is wrong with Dave's?

At what point would we consider Waygook to be Dave's 2.0?

How does Waygook, at present, manage to stay both open(free-speech wise) and respectful at the same time?