Thinking of moving to Taiwan

[dhunte]

Hey

Been living in Seoul for the past 3 years and thinking of moving on to another place at the end of my current contract.

Considering many places but one near the top of the list is Taiwan. Wondering if anyone on this board has lived there before and can help me with some general information.

on your experience there (good and bad), good places to search for available job and basically anything you think someone would want to know about the place

any help is appreciated

thanks

[cyrilene]

Hi
I stayed in Tainan which is near Koashung.  It is a nice country and the money is good (as per usual).  My only advice is that you make sure you get a good agent.  I had an agent but she seems to have gone AWOL.  The thing is that apparently the agents are illegal so ... just do the research and check.  Even though the agents are not legal, they have a system to get around the police.  the problem is that as a foreigner you have little rights and can't do anything about it.  But I had a slightly bad experience there.  2003 was a while back though.

[dhunte]

thanks for the reply  :)

[S.Lee]

not sure which part of taiwan youre thinking about but regardless, taiwan's a small country. living in taipei is pretty easy, u'll find as many people speak english there as they do here. actually aside from the language i find the 2 countries really similar.

u wont have to worry about the winter in taiwan, but the summer's can be hell (hotter and more humid than seoul)

im actually ethnically taiwanese, so i can speak (not read) the langauge(s) in taiwan, but i prefer seoul. (dont tell my parents i said that )

i also taught English at a YMCA there for about a year in 2006.

feel free to PM me if u have any other questions :D

[ADB123]

I volunteered in Taiwan over the summer and was able to explore Taipei, Hualien, and Taroko National Park. I belive that Taiwan is outstandingly GORGEOUS and from the week and a half I spent there I really would consider teaching there. From traveling I noticed more people speak english than my travels in Korea. It was quite refreshing.

Taiwan doesnt have the four seasons like Korea and there are palm trees and gorgeous flowers everywhere!! If you enjoy tea there are tea shops... everywhere! I found Taiwan to be quite exotic and I enjoyed the food much more than Korea.

Give Taiwan a try! I loved my time there and I will be back in November to travel and volunteer at a school.

I heard that teaching at the HESS school branch in Taiwan is quite popular. http://www.hess.com.tw/careers/english/5takes/

Good luck!

[woman-king]

I've been interested in it for awhile too.

It just has a more romantic appeal to me than Korea, to be honest--I think it's the whole tropical island thing.  Studying Mandarin has a lot more appeal to me than Korean, given what China's up to these days.  I also love its closer location to southeast Asia.

Forumosa.com is the Taiwan ESL/expat community's version of Dave's ESL Cafe.

I've been on there a few times asking about life in Taiwan and have been told that the ESL industry is sort of drying up and wages aren't really keeping up with the cost of living there.  It used to be a place one could save the equivalent to what you can in Korea, but apparently that's not really the case anymore.  However, I also have gotten the distinct impression that many long-time ESL teachers in Taiwan want to prevent other, younger teachers from coming over and taking their jobs.  I'd check with actual recruiting agencies or the chains like HESS and Shane to get a real feel for the market. 

One thing I do know is that unlike in Korea, without a Masters or Teacher's Certificate you cannot teach in the public schools there--there's no EPIK or JET-type program.  So it's mostly their version of hagwons.  If you DO have higher qualifications, public school and university gigs are supposed to be good deals there.

[jimmyeatworldwar]

hmm.. lived in taiwan for 8 months..
got real bored. and came back to china.
Taiwan is a good place for sure, but compared to china, korea, i would say it is too small.
Well, 'small' is really a subjective opinion, but i felt too isolated and not so much lively compared to here.

[plchron]

I was in taiwan for 1 1/2 years. Just left in April. It is easy to make work and you don't experience any of the seemingly subvert animosity that i feel exists here. They are still shady as hell about taking advantage of employees, etc. It is not as formalized on a whole. Most buxibans (hagwons) don't have a dress code. Mine told me to wear t-shirts with bright colors. They don't pay for flight or apt., but it is pretty cheap living. There isn't a ridiculous system of needing an ARC for everything (passports suffice), it is easy as hell to get a visa compared to here.  The cost of living is a lot lower. Depending on where you live, it could suck, or be awesome. Kaohsiung is like Busan and taipei is like seoul. I guess Taichung would be Daegu. Most expats I met were really nice and welcoming to new arrivals. If you get screwed by your boss, the government will be able to help. One thing, unless you live in the center of Taipei or Kaohsiung, expect to buy a scooter because you will need it, and it is crazy driving there (they are about $300 to $500 US).  PM if you want more info.

[dmbpang]

Taiwan is a beautiful country and it's quite underrated in terms of food, culture, and tourism. Everyone seems to bypass it for Korea, China, and Japan. But I believe being a teacher is a bit better in Korea due to salary. You don't make as much in Taiwan from what I heard. If money is all you care about. Stay in korea. But if you want a change of scenery, Taiwan is a lovely country.

[actualstarfish]

What are the Taiwanese people like? How do they feel about foreigners? Do they share the same indirect animosity towards foreigners and feel the need to constantly assert their superiority like many Koreans do? It'd be nice to have a change of pace from this.

You'll have to forgive me, I'm pretty ignorant of Taiwan and its culture. I've only known a couple people from Taiwan in my life and basically what I know is that culturally it is supposed to be further ahead than mainland China and many of the political struggles that receive international attention seem to revolve around whether to be more or less sympathetic to the PRC. Enlighten me!

[woman-king]

What are the Taiwanese people like? How do they feel about foreigners? Do they share the same indirect animosity towards foreigners and feel the need to constantly assert their superiority like many Koreans do? It'd be nice to have a change of pace from this.

You'll have to forgive me, I'm pretty ignorant of Taiwan and its culture. I've only known a couple people from Taiwan in my life and basically what I know is that culturally it is supposed to be further ahead than mainland China and many of the political struggles that receive international attention seem to revolve around whether to be more or less sympathetic to the PRC. Enlighten me!

I've heard/read that they tend to be more laid-back about foreigners in general--whether in admiration or hostility.  There were colonized by the Dutch and later the Spanish in the 1600s and I think some remnants of those populations stuck around for quite awhile, so I think they've just had more exposure to Westerners over a longer period of time.

[plchron]

First off, there is cheap heiniken everywhere because of the dutch influence. If you are really down to go, start doing your research on 'forumosa.com'

They are very nice and shy for the most part. The main interactions you have with them will be two fold, work and socializing.

at work they are usually under a lot of stress and tend to project that feeling onto everyone at the workplace. It sucks to be in a workplace with them, because it is not fun. They are always worried and nervous about something. The co teachers you will be working with will be making around 1/2 of what you make. they have convuluted bonus systems worked into all thier contracts, including yours. Try to get as much base pay as you can so you don't need to deal with the bonus system. the taiwanese employees are very afraid of the boss (i've seen them break down and cry after being criticized).

Socializing with them is very fun. They are nice and hospitable, if you start hanging out with thme, you will like it. You don't really have to though, there are a lot of foriegner groups to keep you occupied. Hooking up is very easy. I consider myself ugly, but sometimes i would have more than one girl a week. They practice the '2 meeting rule'. the first time you meet be nice to them, get their number, compliment them. the second time you meet them you have a 90% chance of getting laid.

They actually like us a lot. There isn't really animosity towards us (except with younger men when we dance with taiwanese woman, or thier girlfriends, or the girl that they like and stalk even though she doesn't know that they exist). They want to have us as friends because they think we are interesting, but they still might show off thier shiny american companion to thier buddies sometimes. They are extremely awkward once you meet them at first, but only because they are nervous and trying to be polite. A lot of times they will be embarrassed about not being able to communicate and might walk away mid converstion or just keep saying yes until you leave thier presence (works great at DUI checkpoints when you are on a scooter and they check everyone else's breath but waive you through with no hassle once they see you are a foriegner).  They treat other asian people (especially migrant workers and factory workers) like shit.

[actualstarfish]

First off, there is cheap heiniken everywhere because of the dutch influence. If you are really down to go, start doing your research on 'forumosa.com'

They are very nice and shy for the most part. The main interactions you have with them will be two fold, work and socializing.

at work they are usually under a lot of stress and tend to project that feeling onto everyone at the workplace. It sucks to be in a workplace with them, because it is not fun. They are always worried and nervous about something. The co teachers you will be working with will be making around 1/2 of what you make. they have convuluted bonus systems worked into all thier contracts, including yours. Try to get as much base pay as you can so you don't need to deal with the bonus system. the taiwanese employees are very afraid of the boss (i've seen them break down and cry after being criticized).

Socializing with them is very fun. They are nice and hospitable, if you start hanging out with thme, you will like it. You don't really have to though, there are a lot of foriegner groups to keep you occupied. Hooking up is very easy. I consider myself ugly, but sometimes i would have more than one girl a week. They practice the '2 meeting rule'. the first time you meet be nice to them, get their number, compliment them. the second time you meet them you have a 90% chance of getting laid.

They actually like us a lot. There isn't really animosity towards us (except with younger men when we dance with taiwanese woman, or thier girlfriends, or the girl that they like and stalk even though she doesn't know that they exist). They want to have us as friends because they think we are interesting, but they still might show off thier shiny american companion to thier buddies sometimes. They are extremely awkward once you meet them at first, but only because they are nervous and trying to be polite. A lot of times they will be embarrassed about not being able to communicate and might walk away mid converstion or just keep saying yes until you leave thier presence (works great at DUI checkpoints when you are on a scooter and they check everyone else's breath but waive you through with no hassle once they see you are a foriegner).  They treat other asian people (especially migrant workers and factory workers) like shit.

Interesting. They sounds similar in some ways but better for the most part. Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about Korea so far?

Anyone else with experience in Taiwan, please feel free to share your insight. I'm probably going to finish my last year in Korea and then go elsewhere. Taiwan is one location I am considering. Do you think 2 years of experience in Korean public schools would help me land a decent job or do you recommend getting a CELTA first?

[plchron]

Korea and Taiwan are very similar. Asian country, you don't speak, read or write the language. The heavy nationalism is ridiculous and very funny. None of that in Taiwan, it is like they know that they have no hope of regaining the mainland and have started a new society for the most part. Korea is more expensive, but i do get paid more, so it evens out. There are less random living costs than Taiwan. Here they are ridiculously strict about hierarchy, over there it is a non issue for foreigners. Over there I felt like a cowboy, I could literally do whatever i wanted and not get rolled, and I did some crazy shit. Over here it is like the Koreans have a national mandate to keep us under the microscope, not out of curiosity or because they might learn how to be better human beings, but because they are ignorant and xenophobic.



If you lived here for 2 years than you will have no problem living in Taiwan for two years. The food is better quality in Korea. Just as a whole, I am not worried about getting food poisoning. In Taiwan it was like Russian roulette. The weather is a little hotter and more humid. Getting started is a little more difficult, as i said before there is no standard of providing housing (but housing is cheap), so don't go there with only $1,000 US in the bank.

Your time there really comes down to landing a good job.

Private institute 'Buxiban' (hagwon) - Even though it is illegal, expect your employer to withhold the first two weeks of your salary. They will tell you about it and give it back to you eventually, unless you pull a runner. (I signed a year contract and was given one week of pay back at my six month mark and another back at 9 months). there are horror stories like anywhere else. Do your homework and talk to the past employees. I don't recommend using recruiters. And also avoid big chains (hess, kojen, giraffe, Global village (coincidentally global village in Taiwan is the lowest paying of them all), sesame street). It is the same like here. Normally it is franchised off, so you are at the whim of your immediate local boss, not the head office located in Taipei.

Starting pay should be 55,000 to 65,000 before bonuses. Also, pay is usually based on hourly wage, which in turn is based on teaching hour. So if you teach 20 hrs. a week at 600 NTD, you will make 12,000 NTD a week. This won't include office hours or travel time to and from different franchise branches. You won't be paid for that. Be careful when looking at contracts for private institutes. They may claim you make XXX amount of dollars a month, but if you get paid per teaching hour and they don't like you or can't give you any hours then you are screwed. There usually isn't a guaranteed minimum. Some will try to claim a yearly average of guaranteed minimum, be wary. Also, expect to sign a fake document for the tax people. It is the norm. They lie about your salary so that they pay less towards employment taxes and health insurance (don't worry you still get the same service). You also get most of your taxes back as a refund when you leave, regardless of how much you paid.

Public schools-  good pay, usually salary, had some friends that enjoyed it. You have to be a certified teacher though. The public schools won't screw you on pay, but each one has a different set of standards that they follow, so shop around, you might get free housing and airfare out of it. Same as here as far as skill levels mixed into the same classes and class size.

Once you have been there- Most Buxibans (hagwons) are during the nighttime, so you can work at KINDIES (preschools) in the morning for a couple hours. Expect to be paid more and work off the books ( I had to run from immigration one time).  They aren't allowed but it is literally 'show up and play games for a few hours' type of work.

There are adult classes/ schools available. These are sought after by the people that have become burned out, so harder to find online. Also, you can get hooked up with good jobs by people leaving. Usually the smaller schools want there leaving employees to get one of their friends to take over. So they won't be advertised online.

[alwaysgood]

You should visit it if you are really considering it strongly.  It is only a couple of hours away by plane, and if you travel during the off season, the whole trip can be done pretty cheaply.  I went over Seollal this year, and it was pretty fun.  Taiwan is pretty similar to Korea in some ways, at least in the cities.  They both have that grey urban industrial feel.  The people are friendly, and the food is pretty good.

The main reasons I don't plan on going to teach there are:
1. Better money here
2. Don't want to start from scratch on another language


Edit: I almost forgot, instead of living under constant threat from NK you will live under constant threat from China.

[jimmyeatworldwar]

wow many posters here clearly are giving too much credit for Taiwan..
Weather is really terrible there (this, everyone can agree i bet),
nothing really to do for night life and weekends,
Super nationalistic (more so than Korea- probably because they are an Island and they don't have diplomatic ties to major countries), very loud etc.

The food, was good though. Mainly chinese thats why.
Anyway, I do recommend visiting Taiwan if you are considering real seriously. its different from what you are hearing here and from what you perceive after you actually visit the place.
good luck!

[plchron]

JImmy is right, the weather does blow when it is bad, typhoons and such. If you are up north in Taipei it gets really cold in the winter. I gotta disagree about nationalism. like any good asian country there is a heavy dose of it compared to america, but not nearly as much as korea. Here they try to suffocate you with thier nationalistic, pro korea about everything attitude. Over there it is ok to criticize the cultural aspects that you think are negative, without feeling like you might incur the wrath of a co worker.

[actualstarfish]

JImmy is right, the weather does blow when it is bad, typhoons and such. If you are up north in Taipei it gets really cold in the winter. I gotta disagree about nationalism. like any good asian country there is a heavy dose of it compared to america, but not nearly as much as korea. Here they try to suffocate you with thier nationalistic, pro korea about everything attitude. Over there it is ok to criticize the cultural aspects that you think are negative, without feeling like you might incur the wrath of a co worker.

See this is the stuff I'm interested in. Weather I can suffer through but its the people that ultimately make it or break it for me. To be honest I get tired of all the xenophobia, the intense nationalism, and the self-censoring we have to put up with here. If the people in Taiwan are better in that regard then you have caught my attention.

I'll visit Taiwan for sure at some point but I don't think I can get a good feel of the people during a short trip so I'd like to keep hearing what people with experience have to say.

[dhunte]

cheers for all the responses

greatly appreciated

[actualstarfish]

I'm in the middle of a trip to Taiwan right now and I have to say it is a totally different vibe here in a good way. I've been staying in Taipei only so of course my experience is limited to the big city.

It seems like most of the ESL teachers here are generally happier. There are a fair amount of long-timers which I can't really say I've seen much of in Korea. In Taipei the English level is definitely higher than Seoul or at least they seem less afraid to talk with foreigners. I haven't walked into a single restaurant where someone hasn't spoken English to us.

In comparison to Koreans, the Taiwanese people in Taipei seem very friendly and much more open to foreigners. They also seemed more relaxed. For the guys out there, in the bars and clubs, girls will actually approach you! I was quite surprised by that. The dance floors weren't all segregated like Korea either. Everyone was mingling and mixing and just having a good time, regardless of race.

The job situation isn't quite as good as Korea unfortunately. It seems like most of the newer ESLers in Taipei have to be more careful with their money and as others have mentioned you cannot work in a public school unless you are a certified teacher.

Taiwan isn't quite as "developed" as Korea. It is still a modern place with a great public transportation system but the technology isn't quite up to par with Korea although it is by no means lacking in that regard. In terms of cleanliness in Taipei, it reminded me of Korea except with less trash on sidewalks and no shit smells every other block. The air pollution is probably about the same.

Basically, after spending some time here and interacting with a bunch of other ESL teachers this is my impression: Taiwan is good for the people, the culture, the food, and the language (Mandarin is extremely useful of course). Foreigners are happier in Taiwan and that is a fact. Korea is good for the money and including the public schools, has slightly better working conditions.

Taiwan is looking very attractive to me right now. If I've learned anything in Korea it is that for me, money does not equal happiness. If the weather wasn't so damned warm all the time I'd be here in a heartbeat.