Body Image, Vanity, and Skin tone in Korea

[MTBman]

To me the real issue here is the gossip.  A lot of Koreans, including my wife, gossip.  Gossiping seems to be the preferred social activity when friends and friendly people get together here.  I'm overweight by statistical (charts) and Korean standards, too.  Koreans watch a lot of health related shows where an expert, or experts, lecture an attentive audience often of women about health and well-beingness.  So, I think the OPs coworkers are just gossiping.  That's what many here do for fun.  I got caught up in it as well, but I have made a concerted effort to stop.  I don't think gossping is socially graceful anymore and as the OP pointed out, gossiping can easily hurt the feelings of those being gossiped about.

And regarding the comment about putting down that burger and go to the gym:  I would say it would be better to allow yourself that burger once in a while, and it would help you more to keep a food diary and write down (awareness) what you eat.  Personally, I don't think that Korean food is always healthier for everyone in terms of salt and spiciness.  It isn't for me.  I still prefer western-style vegetables, for example. 

I find gyms or health clubs incredibly boring and annoying.  I have a thing about other exercisers not re-racking their plates or dumbbels, or sitting and meditating on scarce weight benches for long periods of time while you wait for them to finish.  I have stopped paying for gyms and have taken my exercising outdoors or inside my own apartment.  Go for a run.  Get a bike.  Take a hike on a mountain.  Take an urban hike at Suwon Castle.  Take a walk through a traditional market or along Cheonggyecheon (the rejuvenated stream in downtown Seoul) with a few thousand of your closest friends in Seoul.  Find a river in the summertime you can soak your feet in.  Go powerwalking with a friend. 

[MTBman]

I forgot to add something else:  A lot of my students tease other students about how many "packs" they have.  I tell them that I have a one pack but that there is a six pack underneath.  Most of my male students actually have a "one pack" too.  I like to remind them about that whenever this comes up and we laugh it off, usually. 

[woman-king]

Look, the OP did not write "I am obese and think I look awesome but Koreans don't like it help me change their minds plz."

Another poster suggested you change "overweight" to "I have a large scar," or really, "I have _____feature that gets negative comments here," to get to the real heart of the issue.

Again, the real question in the thread isn't really weight or physical health, but cross-cultural communication.  Break it down like this - Question One: Is it at least a part of our job description to explain and represent our own culture and cultural values?  According to my co-teachers, at least, it is.  If you disagree, you can say why.  If you agree, then I think explaining how Westerners discuss "personal" things as a matter of explaining cultural differences is pertinent to what we do here.  It's information that would be very helpful to any Koreans who planned to spend some time in a Western country, particularly if their visit is for professional reasons (I have co-teachers who've spent months or weeks at English teachers' training centers in Australia, Canada and the States, so this is not a far-fetched example). 

Question Two: What is a good way to explain to a Korean when they've just totally crossed a personal boundary--whether it's pressuring you to drink at a staff dinner, giving out your cell # to students without asking, insisting you drop plans last-minute to do something, or yeah, asking inappropriate personal questions or making derogatory personal remarks.  You could argue that as guests in Korea we should always defer to the Korean way of doing things, or you could argue there are ways to maintain some boundaries from your own culture, and offer suggestions of ways to explain that in a Korean context.

The health of the original poster in question is pretty irrelevant to all of this.  I have been in Korea for a year and still wonder about a lot of these things, and it's disappointing that a lot of us here can't seem to pull this conversation off very constructively.

Sorry but the OP point was how upset she was at peoples 'hurtful' comments. So the focus was how to deal with Koreans in their own culture because they have clearly upset the OP. That leads to the obvious that we are not here and cannot change an entire culture and shouldn't try to but should try to understand the culture we are living in. And I say BS that we should be teaching what is acceptable all the time to Koreans even if our Co-Teachers are interested and want to know. The discussion is clearly about dealing with the whole of Korean culture not our students. Actually you getting in the way of a real constructive discussion of learning something new objectively from a new culture. ie what is right and wrong and not what we are used to. I say somone pointing out a physical thing like weight is not offensive if the intention is one of friendliness and interest and not aiming to cause offense.

I would put to you that why you might get all hot and bothered about Koreans breaking your precious social norms from your home country I would guess that you like most teachers will hypocritically dismiss many cultural norms in Korea that are offensive to Koreans like wearing a low cut top, or smoking, not eating lunch with workers or even work related norms like being subordinate to elders even if they are wrong etc..  if you feel they clash with your personal beliefs and rights. This is pure hypocrcy of course.

Of course what we are really dealing with now is Culture Shock and peoples painful reaction to it rather than acceptace of it.(which accounts for 50% of the underlying subject of these forums... So relax and IF Koreans ever come to the West they will have to learn about the West and deal with it too when they get there.
 

Well, you actually responded to the gist of the thread this time, which is good, but not without unnecessary personal attacks.  Not sure why it's so hard to separate the two.   ???

In response to your underlining argument, look, I think we all understand the need to show respect to the culture here and we understand that it is different, and yes of course experience culture shock.  In my personal experience I've found Koreans to be quite aware of the fact that Westerners will experience culture shock here and often very understanding about it.

I also think it's interesting that for someone who seems on one hand very fond of Korean culture, really likes living here and seems in Korea for the long run to then suggest NETs dismiss co-teachers' requests to teach Western culture as "BS."  My supervisors have specifically told me to "introduce Western etiquette and teach Western culture" in my classroom.  I think some teachers who come to Korea with the intention of fully integrating into the culture misunderstand why they are hired to teach here in the first place.  It isn't just because you can speak English fluently; an English robot could do that, too.  Or a Korean who's lived for a few years in the West.  It's to give kids (and their teachers) in a very isolated country real-life exposure to a culture they've only seen through the lens of mainstream media.  It's to help them feel comfortable using English with real native speakers.  And yeah, it's to help them understand Western culture. 

Given all that, I don't think my position on this is all that crazy.  I think the OP can politely point out how she feels about personal comments or something and let her co-workers understand where she's coming from culturally.  I would expect people new to the West to be able to do the same in a similar sort of situation.

Anyway.  Peace.

[Jozigirl]

I would put to you that why you might get all hot and bothered about Koreans breaking your precious social norms from your home country I would guess that you like most teachers will hypocritically dismiss many cultural norms in Korea that are offensive to Koreans like wearing a low cut top, or smoking, not eating lunch with workers or even work related norms like being subordinate to elders even if they are wrong etc..  if you feel they clash with your personal beliefs and rights. This is pure hypocrcy of course.

That's a pretty high horse you're riding.  You have no idea what other people think or do so perhaps being a little less judgmental would help your arguments somewhat.  Many of us do respect Korean culture and try to observe much of the etiquette but that doesn't mean that we've forgotten our own culture and etiquette.

Part of learning a language is learning the culture associated with the language - any linguist will tell you that.  You cannot achieve native fluency in a language without understanding the culture of the language and people who use that language.  Of course, you can learn all the grammar and vocabulary but this will not guarantee you native like fluency.  This is exactly why so many students travel to improve their language skills in foreign languages because culture can only be taught to a certain extent before learning plateaus. 

Just as Koreans get upset when we do not adhere to their social norms, so we get upset when something happens that contradicts our social norms.  You cannot change 20+ years of values and morals instilled in a person and no one expects us to.  Interpersonal communication is about compromise so, yes, just as Koreans are allowed to be offended by some of the things we do, we are allowed to be offended by some of the things that they do regardless of their intentions.  We are not Korean; we have a culture of our own and we have social norms of our own.  It's not hypocrisy; it's cultural diversity. 

The issue is not the health implications of being overweight.  The issue is maintaining a balance between the two cultures.  And, yes, while it may very well be culture shock, it doesn't change the fact that such comments are still hurtful and offensive within our culture even if Korean culture finds them more acceptable.  That's not hypocrisy; it's simply a different value/belief/cultural and social norm system to the Korean one.  To label it hypocrisy suggests that one culture can be superior - rather than just different - to another.   

[sunshinefiasco]

Look, the OP did not write "I am obese and think I look awesome but Koreans don't like it help me change their minds plz."

Another poster suggested you change "overweight" to "I have a large scar," or really, "I have _____feature that gets negative comments here," to get to the real heart of the issue.

Again, the real question in the thread isn't really weight or physical health, but cross-cultural communication.  Break it down like this - Question One: Is it at least a part of our job description to explain and represent our own culture and cultural values?  According to my co-teachers, at least, it is.  If you disagree, you can say why.  If you agree, then I think explaining how Westerners discuss "personal" things as a matter of explaining cultural differences is pertinent to what we do here.  It's information that would be very helpful to any Koreans who planned to spend some time in a Western country, particularly if their visit is for professional reasons (I have co-teachers who've spent months or weeks at English teachers' training centers in Australia, Canada and the States, so this is not a far-fetched example). 

Question Two: What is a good way to explain to a Korean when they've just totally crossed a personal boundary--whether it's pressuring you to drink at a staff dinner, giving out your cell # to students without asking, insisting you drop plans last-minute to do something, or yeah, asking inappropriate personal questions or making derogatory personal remarks.  You could argue that as guests in Korea we should always defer to the Korean way of doing things, or you could argue there are ways to maintain some boundaries from your own culture, and offer suggestions of ways to explain that in a Korean context.

The health of the original poster in question is pretty irrelevant to all of this.  I have been in Korea for a year and still wonder about a lot of these things, and it's disappointing that a lot of us here can't seem to pull this conversation off very constructively.

Sorry but the OP point was how upset she was at peoples 'hurtful' comments. So the focus was how to deal with Koreans in their own culture because they have clearly upset the OP. That leads to the obvious that we are not here and cannot change an entire culture and shouldn't try to but should try to understand the culture we are living in.

Of course what we are really dealing with now is Culture Shock and peoples painful reaction to it rather than acceptace of it.(which accounts for 50% of the underlying subject of these forums... So relax and IF Koreans ever come to the West they will have to learn about the West and deal with it too when they get there.
 

Someone's weight is just not the same as  "don't wear low-cut shirts" or "respect the decisions of older people, even when they're obviously wrong". People suggested replacing weight with large scar-- let's try replacing it with just straight up being stared at all the time regardless of weight, scars, or anything else. There's a certain element of "get over it, that's part of life here", and a certain element of "guys, by any standard this is a little ridiculous".

No matter what the Korea-specific cultural stuff is, two things remain true: Firstly, OP lives here, and will have to deal with these kinds of comments/reactions regardless, and secondly, in no culture is it considered polite to consistently offend the shizz out of someone, or to consistently ignore the fact that they're offended. One would think that her co-teachers, who know where OP is from and how "outrageously fat all westerners are" would also know that it's unbelievably rude to bring it up to a westerner, particularly ALL THE TIME. Even if they don't, a little nunchi here would go a long way.

[johnthegreek]

I would put to you that why you might get all hot and bothered about Koreans breaking your precious social norms from your home country I would guess that you like most teachers will hypocritically dismiss many cultural norms in Korea that are offensive to Koreans like wearing a low cut top, or smoking, not eating lunch with workers or even work related norms like being subordinate to elders even if they are wrong etc..  if you feel they clash with your personal beliefs and rights. This is pure hypocrcy of course.

That's a pretty high horse you're riding.  You have no idea what other people think or do so perhaps being a little less judgmental would help your arguments somewhat.  Many of us do respect Korean culture and try to observe much of the etiquette but that doesn't mean that we've forgotten our own culture and etiquette.

Part of learning a language is learning the culture associated with the language - any linguist will tell you that.  You cannot achieve native fluency in a language without understanding the culture of the language and people who use that language.  Of course, you can learn all the grammar and vocabulary but this will not guarantee you native like fluency.  This is exactly why so many students travel to improve their language skills in foreign languages because culture can only be taught to a certain extent before learning plateaus. 

Just as Koreans get upset when we do not adhere to their social norms, so we get upset when something happens that contradicts our social norms.  You cannot change 20+ years of values and morals instilled in a person and no one expects us to.  Interpersonal communication is about compromise so, yes, just as Koreans are allowed to be offended by some of the things we do, we are allowed to be offended by some of the things that they do regardless of their intentions.  We are not Korean; we have a culture of our own and we have social norms of our own.  It's not hypocrisy; it's cultural diversity. 

The issue is not the health implications of being overweight.  The issue is maintaining a balance between the two cultures.  And, yes, while it may very well be culture shock, it doesn't change the fact that such comments are still hurtful and offensive within our culture even if Korean culture finds them more acceptable.  That's not hypocrisy; it's simply a different value/belief/cultural and social norm system to the Korean one.  To label it hypocrisy suggests that one culture can be superior - rather than just different - to another.

You misunderstand I was saying to defend your own culture in a host culture culture and then (which is common ie 50% of these threads) Dismiss the cultural norms of the host culture. I could give examples but this kind of video shows Westerns view of Korean ways ie they can't understand them so they characterise them as stupid and just wrong. Please don't try to tell me I wrong about this. Your right its a high horse I'm on and I can see some of the posters here from a long distance. People are so blind to how they act as if their culture is Superior its funny if not a little patronising. I'm sorry but North Americans should look at themselves and learn how awful their view of the world is that normalises going into other countries and blowing crap out of them and wondering why they hate us so much. Its been the American way for a long time now and Americans have grown up believening their world view is right and other people need to 'develop' to be like them. 

[johnthegreek]

You can believe all you want that were are here to teach the culture but apart from some titbits about food and some cultural things I wouldn't get too caught up with the idea that we are here to Teach them about Western culture. For starters there is no such thing as Western culture as our cultureas are multi ethinic for most of us with foods and cultures blended. So what are you talking about. Cause one country in the West like America might be very sensitive about the body while many europeans/Australians are far less puritanical. So again I say BS Western culture is not all the same (as people like to point out on these threads regularly) people shouldn't get caught up with the EPIK stuff of teaching your culture. The truth is Koreans need English to furthur their lives be it getting a job or getting into University. The rich will get sent to the West so you don't need to worry. Do you think most Koreans are that interested in Western culture beyond some food and basic cultural differences. Forget it.

[Melon]

I have much more sympathy for people with a particular body shape or an 'undesirable' appearance. They can't help the shape of their legs, their height or their bust size. There's a reason Korea has such high plastic surgery and suicide figures.

If you're overweight courtesy of your lifestyle however, then you have a convenient answer as to how to deal with the way people talk about you. I'm a little bit overweight; if I want my co-teacher not to mention it (she occasionally does!) I can go and do some exercise. Anyone know the word for 'badminton' in Korean?

[johnthegreek]

I have much more sympathy for people with a particular body shape or an 'undesirable' appearance. They can't help the shape of their legs, their height or their bust size. There's a reason Korea has such high plastic surgery and suicide figures.

If you're overweight courtesy of your lifestyle however, then you have a convenient answer as to how to deal with the way people talk about you. I'm a little bit overweight; if I want my co-teacher not to mention it (she occasionally does!) I can go and do some exercise. Anyone know the word for 'badminton' in Korean?

Body shape or some deformity is not part of this discussion in my opinion. I would seperate those ultimately those things you can change and those things you can't. And those things that God gave you and you shouldn't feel bad about.

[yeti08]

I have much more sympathy for people with a particular body shape or an 'undesirable' appearance. They can't help the shape of their legs, their height or their bust size. There's a reason Korea has such high plastic surgery and suicide figures.

If you're overweight courtesy of your lifestyle however, then you have a convenient answer as to how to deal with the way people talk about you. I'm a little bit overweight; if I want my co-teacher not to mention it (she occasionally does!) I can go and do some exercise. Anyone know the word for 'badminton' in Korean?

Body shape or some deformity is not part of this discussion in my opinion. I would seperate those ultimately those things you can change and those things you can't. And those things that God gave you and you shouldn't feel bad about.

Not everyone has the ability to let everything roll off their backs, dude really just stop.  I wasn't able to until sometime in high school, but sometimes it takes longer and others never develop it. 

[Jozigirl]

You can believe all you want that were are here to teach the culture but apart from some titbits about food and some cultural things I wouldn't get too caught up with the idea that we are here to Teach them about Western culture. For starters there is no such thing as Western culture as our cultureas are multi ethinic for most of us with foods and cultures blended. So what are you talking about. Cause one country in the West like America might be very sensitive about the body while many europeans/Australians are far less puritanical. So again I say BS Western culture is not all the same (as people like to point out on these threads regularly) people shouldn't get caught up with the EPIK stuff of teaching your culture. The truth is Koreans need English to furthur their lives be it getting a job or getting into University. The rich will get sent to the West so you don't need to worry. Do you think most Koreans are that interested in Western culture beyond some food and basic cultural differences. Forget it.

You can argue all you want that teaching culture is not necessary.  Yes, there's no one answer for "western culture" - no one is saying that there is just one "western culture" - but there are a lot of common denominators that we can teach so please don't try to say that we shouldn't get caught up with the idea of teaching culture as part of language because anyone who has studied languages and linguistics knows that this is not so. 

You've made your piont about people needing to be healthy.  Not everyone can just brush off hurtful comments.

[johnthegreek]

I don't think people always should brush off hurtful comments I thought I made it clear that was my point.


My Next thread.

"I don't shower and people keep saying rude comments that I stink. How to deal with these hurtful comments?"

[MTBman]

It's not true that I, personally, don't need to worry about not teaching culture.  I have had students, and I am sure I will have students, who go abroad to study.  The times that questions about culture came up were richly interesting.  I have had students go to the UK for graduate school, Brazil (to an international school),  and to the US to be an exchange student.  Culture matters to these students.

[Not a fan of kimchi]

First of all, I know I need to lose weight and that's why I'm pissed off because its none of their business.  They are not friends or family or anyone that cares.  They are grown-up Mean Girls.  I can deal with someone telling me a couple times or even a few times about how they think I need to lose weight.  But, its been almost 8 months!  Enough is enough!  My point is that YES its rude and two its NONE OF THEIR DAMN BUSINESS!!! 

Everyone has problems.  It's not always physical, maybe they are addicted to cigarettes or gambling, etc. 

 
Matthew 7:3
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

And, YES I am trying to lose weight.
 

[Not a fan of kimchi]

BTW I think that Korean's are very kind and helpful people.  BUT when it comes to beauty, if a person doesn't fit the ideals of beauty in Korea (pale skin, skinny, big eyes, oval shaped face) they can be MEAN.

[superjo2092]

Everyone has problems.  It's not always physical, maybe they are addicted to cigarettes or gambling, etc. 

Aww geez, I smoke and gamble too much as well!  I'm screwed.  It is interesting how in America it's taboo and rude to call someone "fat" or point out that they have a lazy eye.  Yet if you're a smoker, you have no self-control and can get yelled at.  I guess having a lazy eye doesn't count, though, because that's something that you can't just naturally change.

As much as I want to side with the OP, it's difficult knowing that even after eight months, she is still very angry.  If you've tried to say something or show your discomfort, it's obviously not gonna work.  Better develop that thick skin crazy fast or take a few Zoloft before school and just float on by.  Best of luck to ya', kid.

[Jrong]

First of all, I know I need to lose weight and that's why I'm pissed off because its none of their business.  They are not friends or family or anyone that cares.

Hey, I understand that completely. In different ways, I've seen how Koreans love to tell you what's wrong with you -- what you need to fix or change. Having people confront me in this way never bothered me when it happened in a developing culture (like South America or South Asia) b/c there was a focus on relationship. Here, people just tell you what you need to change...and then keep moving at "the speed of Ajumma". They don't spontaneously sit down with you for 2 hours in the middle of the day to drink tea, chat, and get to know you.

This society is so work-centred  (or at least tries to be ueber-productive) and "Sensing" that I think they don't realize how utterly foolish it is to believe someone is going to change something about themselves just b/c you told them to -- apart from relationship. This facet of Korean culture probably gets under my skin more than any other...

[ChrisM]

BUT, I would never allow my students or coworkers to ask me about my weight.  It's the height of rudeness in Western society, especially for a kid to ask on adult.  I tell them it's none of their business.  Same for my age.

The age thing is a bit over-dramatized. If someone asks your age it's not rude. You can't look at a person and see how old they are. You can guess but if you want to know you should ask.

Weight is a bit more rude though, but it seems that in Korea it's pretty common.

[sedna273]

I've noticed that having a certain apperance is highly valued in Korea-for example, I've had KT tell me that wearing makeup is a sign of politeness for women, and they are expected to do so when preparing for work. (This was a hint for me to start using some, but I won't-I'm allergic to most makeup as it makes me break out) This isn't just found in Korea though-did you know foundations in Japan are specially formulated not to match your skin tone, but rather to mask what makes your skin tone different from a certain ideal tone? 
I'm an Asian American who has what in the States would be considered a slim build, but here Koreans hear my weight and tell me to lose some! I think for a 5'4" Asian woman, the ideal weight is just over 100 lbs. Which I am NOT going to drop down to unless I were to lose all my muscle and fat. Personally, I find some of the Korean women who are meeting the Korean ideal to be frightingly skinny. Also, some of my dieting KT freely talk about how hungry they are because they don't eat a lot, or anything past 6PM, etc...

Anything else I have to say, I think other posters have said already. OP, I hope your situation improves! Just know that from my own personal experience Asian cultures are not scared to be "rude" by Western standards. One time, I got acne cleanser for Christmas from my aunt. 

[confusedsafferinkorea]

BUT, I would never allow my students or coworkers to ask me about my weight.  It's the height of rudeness in Western society, especially for a kid to ask on adult.  I tell them it's none of their business.  Same for my age.

The age thing is a bit over-dramatized. If someone asks your age it's not rude. You can't look at a person and see how old they are. You can guess but if you want to know you should ask.

Weight is a bit more rude though, but it seems that in Korea it's pretty common.

I my country it is extremely rude to ask someone's age, so I can't agree with you at all. It is none of anyone's business how old I am.