Naturalized Korean decries refusal of entry to sauna

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/117_96613.html

I'm surprised no one has put this up yet.

The sauna owners have the right to refuse entry to whomever they please. There are plenty of other saunas in Changwon who want to make money.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Well you are right about a business having the right to refuse who they want, but when it is accompanied by such racist statements as were made and I quote from the article:

“The sauna worker told police that foreigners are not allowed there because they may make the water dirty. He also said Koreans customers don’t like using the facility with foreigners because in the town there are many foreign women working at bars and there were rumors that some have AIDS,” she said.

that is totally acceptable in any modern, progressive 1st world country.

This too is really shocking:

“There are laws banning discrimination by gender or by worker’s status. But there is none governing discrimination by race, not only do Koreans discriminate against foreigners but also Koreans discriminate against other Koreans like in Ku’s case,” a director of the center said.


I trust that current legislation will soon be changed to get rid of this type of thing. It can only harm Korea in the eyes of the International Community should they not act and update their legislation to fall in line with modern and free-thinking countries.

I think this woman has every right to feel aggrieved and to take this matter further.  It is just a few Koreans that spoil it for foreigners and other Koreans alike, so I think this person should be made an example of.

Just my opinion and you have the right to disagree with it.

[Horus]

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/117_96613.html

I'm surprised no one has put this up yet.

The sauna owners have the right to refuse entry to whomever they please. There are plenty of other saunas in Changwon who want to make money.

My god, this one takes the "Apologist of the Year Award.' Sometimes I think some of the posters here suffer from a strange form of Stockholm Syndrome.

[woman-king]

The woman definitely has the right to spread her story of blatant racial discrimination around on as many news sites as possible.  That's the other side of "their business, they do what they want" (which I more or less agree with).  It adds to the list of stories of discrimination against foreigners in Korea.  The more attention they get, the more aware the greater expat community and the wider world will be of the potential issues with being non-Korean in Korea.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Rusty you are not thinking clearly..... maybe it is because it is Friday.

[Yu_Bumsuk]

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/117_96613.html

I'm surprised no one has put this up yet.

The sauna owners have the right to refuse entry to whomever they please. There are plenty of other saunas in Changwon who want to make money.

My god, this one takes the "Apologist of the Year Award.' Sometimes I think some of the posters here suffer from a strange form of Stockholm Syndrome.

What the sauna worker did was egregious and unacceptable to any right thinking person. This would be true of any country or any people. However, the alternative is much worse. "Taking it further" to whom? And then what? Should we force the sauna owner to do something they don't want to? What happens if they refuse? Should we throw them in prison? So, you are saying that committing violence against a private citizen is worth it to protect the feelings of another person?

This would be a very easy battle to win. Get some naturalised Korean citizens who don't look Korean. Go to the sauna, slap the entrance fee on the counter, and just march right in. Bring along a news crew and have them stay at the entrance. Then what happens? The owner calls the police? No police officer would want to deal with it, and if they came out only to find out there's a news crew, what are they going to do? Round up enough female officers to drag the foreigners out so that they can all be on the 6PM news? I doubt it.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Rusty you are not thinking clearly..... maybe it is because it is Friday.

Would you care to point out what is wrong with what I said?

Read my earlier post to see what I think is wrong. Yes, businesses have the right to reserve entrance but this is a case of blatant racism, they have no proof she has HIV or makes the water dirty, so therefore they have no grounds to exclude her.  Racism is wrong ...... period.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

“In these modern times when 1.3 million immigrants live here, it is shameful that they have their human rights infringed upon and are deprived of many entitled rights in daily life only because they look different or they came from other countries. Korea claims to stand for multiculturalism, but is far short of laws and systems for immigrants,” the director said.

These are the words of  a Korean and every decent, thinking Korean will agree with these statements and support this woman.  It just takes on idiot to spoil everything.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

'Of course racism is wrong. Where have I said it isn't? Forcing people to do stuff they don't want to ie. using coercive force against them (even if they are ignorant), is far worse than what happened to this woman. '

Sorry Rusty, have to disagree with you. No one is advocating violence, but ignorance is no excuse. They should be made an example of.

[woman-king]

“In these modern times when 1.3 million immigrants live here, it is shameful that they have their human rights infringed upon and are deprived of many entitled rights in daily life only because they look different or they came from other countries. Korea claims to stand for multiculturalism, but is far short of laws and systems for immigrants,” the director said.

These are the words of  a Korean and every decent, thinking Korean will agree with these statements and support this woman.  It just takes on idiot to spoil everything.

That's a great statement, and while I'm pretty libertarian on "people should get to be assholes with their personal property if they want to," I think widespread social discrimination can necessitate laws that protect people (such as in the American south in the 1960s or in South Africa).  On the other hand, if some random asshole in Seattle decided to, say, blatantly not allow Asians into his restaurant, he'd lose his business in a day--and be picketed, protested, written about and generally have his entire reputation ruined.  I don't think legal action would be necessary in those cases--but individual losers are only kept accountable when the wider culture has the best interests of the minority at heart.  What is the "average Korean's" thoughts on this case?  While most Koreans I know personally would be appalled, I imagine there's a very sizeable demographic that would support not just this business owner's right to be immoral but actually back up his reasoning as well.  The real question is, is that demographic big and powerful enough to create genuinely dangerous living situations for people like this woman--or people like us?  That is where I draw the line anyway.

[Paul]

Geez, at first I saw this thread in the recent posts list and I immediately just assumed it was a joke in poor taste. Why? Because it rings all too familiar to the infamous Debito vs the Otaru onsen suit in Japan. Look it up and cringe as history repeats itself in a new country.

...

And here we go. Supriendly! He's already opened the social commentary. I'd wager Kushibo will open another discussion by the end of the day.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest Korea's unwillingness to be compared to Japan in a negative way may actually prove quite handy in resolving this issue.

I trust that current legislation will soon be changed to get rid of this type of thing. It can only harm Korea in the eyes of the International Community should they not act and update their legislation to fall in line with modern and free-thinking countries.

Go back a month, and I'd agree. However, call me jaded if you like, but after reading about that court ruling a few weeks back that essentially revoked previously enforced base human rights for non citizens in Korea (the rationale behind throwing out the Vander case), I have zero trust in this happening irrespective of the good intentions and forward thinking ideals of the majority of the populace. Please, please Korea, prove me wrong.

[Frozencat99]

The paramount nature of "rights of the private citizen" don't apply wholesale and aren't necessarily even applicable in this case.

The right to be an ignorant and arrogant racist (or homophobe, or whatever bigotry you should want to put here) also seems to reign over the right to public access, it seems.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

The saddest thing about all of this is that Korea has no laws that outlaw racism. I find this distressing in a country trying to be a player amongst the big boys. It can only harm Korea in the long run.

[Frozencat99]

Rusty you are not thinking clearly..... maybe it is because it is Friday.

Of course this women is racist and bigotted but as her buisness is private property she has the right to not allow anyone she wants to her establishment.

Not necessarily true, dependent on amendment and constitutional provisions and the order of which they appear. In many countries -- South Korea notwithstanding, I know -- your right to evict anyone from your property falls behind the right to not be discriminated against based on x factor.

Also, the land of the free moniker didn't start because "you're totally free from government and no one can infringe on them liberties". History has valuable lessons, unfortunately distorted because people use land of the free as a bumper sticker slogan rather than an ideal of discourse.

[Ben-Ja-Meen]

Rusty you are not thinking clearly..... maybe it is because it is Friday.

Just to use an extreme example. If there was a high class Hotel in the West and next door to those baths was a Drugs and Alchohol Shelter would the high class Hotel allow them to come in? Should the Hotel be forced by the police to them to allow the Drug addicts in?

*I also think people haven't picked up on the real issue the woman had which wasn't one of race but the fac t in the area was a lot of Foreign sex workers. It was most likely discrimination against the idea they were sex workers not just foreigners. While I personally wouldn't exclude a sex worker you can at least see how an owner might want to exclude those people and I imagine many of the people who go to the sauna would agree with her decision based on this idea.  Don't forget saunas are often places for children and moms.

Don't be ridiculous Johnthegreek... the owner of the sauna excluded her because she was not an ethnic Korean.  That's it.  The owner's decision was rooted in his/her own racism, and the racism of his other ethnic Korean customers.  Nothing about that is acceptable.

Excluding someone based on the color of their skin, or the shape of their nose is not the same thing AT ALL as excluding someone because they are under the influence of drugs and pose a legitimate threat to other customers.  The fact that you would even make that hotel argument made me want the throw up in my mouth a little bit... 

Furthermore, the woman explained that she was was a naturalized Korean citizen through her marriage to a Korean man.  She's a married woman with children, not a sex worker.  ALSO... I would really like to compare the number of foreigner sex workers with the number of ethnic Korean sex workers in the same area.  I'd be really, really, surprised if there were more former Uzbekistani prostitutes than Koreans.

[sejongthefabulous]

The only way to make a Korean more uncomfortable than a foreigner sitting beside them on the bus is one sitting beside them in the bath. I wouldn't be surprised if more people will go there to support their decision, or even just because it's foreigner free and nationally advertised now. Honestly though, if they tell you to leave, why would you insist on staying. Even though she is a Korean citizen, she is not a Korean by most Koreans' definitions.

[McGenghis]

The only way to make a Korean more uncomfortable than a foreigner sitting beside them on the bus is one sitting beside them in the bath. I wouldn't be surprised if more people will go there to support their decision, or even just because it's foreigner free and nationally advertised now. Honestly though, if they tell you to leave, why would you insist on staying. Even though she is a Korean citizen, she is not a Korean by most Koreans' definitions.

And here's the rub. Korea is actively pursuing a multicultural agenda. No one foisted this on her. At the airports, on TV, at various centers around the country Korea is promoting itself as a place of 다문화 acceptance.

And if Korea wants all the warm fuzzy feelings associated with multiculturalism, then she should also be ready to deal with some of the problems that might arise. Having legal framework within which racism might be fought seems like a basic first step, non?

[Ben-Ja-Meen]

Honestly though, if they tell you to leave, why would you insist on staying. Even though she is a Korean citizen, she is not a Korean by most Koreans' definitions.

Honestly though, if Rosa Parks was asked to stay at the back of the bus, why would she insist on moving to the front?  Or maybe she should have stayed in the back... because she wasn't really wanted in the front.  Even though Rosa, as a black woman, was every bit as good as a white woman, she wasn't as good by most people's definitions in 1950's Montgomery, Alabama.   

[sejongthefabulous]

There are dozens of bars and restaurants around Seoul that discriminate based on race. The only reason this is making news is because she is a Korean citizen. She is also really persistent and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out she was looking for trouble. There was a thread on another popular ESL forum that talked about a sauna near Busan station that refused foreigners. Furthermore if you know about Busan station there is a place called Texas Street that is famous for 'Russian' and Southeast Asian ladies. (Johnthegreek's post kinda makes sense now). Maybe she knew what I know and what Johnthegreek knows and decided to go and stir the pot a little knowing that since she is a citizen she can get away with it.  Anyway, I doubt the world will really care, if you are just learning for the first time that East-Asians can be racist, that's sad.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Anyway, I doubt the world will really care, if you are just learning for the first time that East-Asians can be racist, that's sad.

What is sad is that people on this site are rationalising and making all kinds of excuses for this owner who is clearly racist.