Discipline

[kobrzyc]

I am having trouble with one of my 3rd year middle school girl’s classes.  They are disrespectful and will absolutely not listen to me at all.  We are at a point where anything I tell them they just ignore or mock me. 

What I originally did for discipline was have them stand and recite the Dolch word list when they got too noisy, then it reached a point where they just flat out said no. 
Then I thought about starting class with no chairs and they have to earn chairs to sit.  They treated it like a game. 
What I tried next was use a 45 min timer and pause the timer when they talked too much.  That seemed to work for a bit and even better when I had them stay for an extra 40 mins (class is right before cleaning time so its cool)!!!!!!  It was great for a few weeks and they were really good.  But then they were acting up really badly and had to stay an extra 25mins.  When the bell rang, they almost knocked my co-teacher down when they rushed the classroom door she was at. 

Out of 36 students, only 8 listen and pay attention.  I talked to my co-teacher about having the class meet me after school or during lunch time but all she said is that it is not possible and parents would think that is too cruel.  She suggests that I just have the class and try to ignore the bad students (all 28 of them) and reward the good students with candy.  That is something that I do not want to do because it shows other classes that they can get away with whatever they want. I have honestly run out of ideas and motivation for this class, can anyone help?

[xiloa360]

I really sympathize. I have trouble with my 3rd grade students as well. In the past I dealt with the talking by saying "Look, look, look at me. Everyone clap your hands 5 times." That worked for a little but last week they were pretty bad.  I first want to start off saying that I don't like getting angry and I don't think that getting angry and yelling is productive. But this week I changed my tactics and I yelled at them in Korean: "Yah!" It may sound weird saying that I yelled at them in Korean but people get angry and yell differently in different languages. It worked. I had to yell at them a few times but after that the class went a little more smoothly. It wasn't perfect but it was a lot better than it's been in the past.  I'll see if it works again next week.  I've been here for less than a year but I'm starting to see more clearly that each class is a work in progress. Each class is also like an individual with whom you learn to interact with and with whom you develop a relationship. Likewise, you're going to have your good days and your bad days. Hopefully your good days will outnumber the bad days and if you don't have any good days, I hope they come soon.
Hang in there 

[Yu_Bumsuk]

They have a couple of weeks before their final exams and then MS is basically over. Put up with it for now and start over with a new plan next year.

[kyndo]

I think part of the problem is that as foreign teachers, we have very little power to actually enforce discipline, and the students are very well aware of this.

On an aside, as teacher assistants, we are not actually responsible for class dicipline. Technically that is the job of the Korean English teacher. Not that saying this helps you at all or anything but it might make you feel better 

My students are generally pretty good, but on the occasional off day, or when my coteachers aren't around to play bouncer, I use the same methods you've used... adding minutes to class time if the class is too loud. conversely, if the class is really good, they can earn an early finish (3 or 4 minutes at the most) which gives them something to work for.

I have misbehaving individuals stand up. I tend to pick on standing students, so not only do they have to stand, but they have to *gasp* answer questions more often too.

I don't threaten my middle school students with their homeroom teachers ('cause that implies that I don't have authority etc) but if a class or individual is really super bad, then I cheerfully rat them out later.

Some interesting discipline techniques I've read about but haven't ever tried:

- Making students sit in dead silence for 2 or 3 minutes. If they make a noise, start from beginning. Being quiet is agony for a lot of kids.
- Squirt gun! I trained my dog this way, and it worked really well. I imagine it would work in a classroom too. Especially in Jan/Feb.
- Punish class but not the troublesome individual. Get the students to crack down on the troublemakers. I see a few problems with this (teacher is unfair!), but some teachers swear by this.
- Make classes earn special event days by awarding class tokens. With x number of tokens, the class can get x reward (pizza day, movie day, whatever). Can also get classes to compete with each other -- the first class to reach 50 points wins the prize etc.
- Assigned seating. Make kids earn the privilege of sitting with their friends.
- Force your coteacher to be in class with you, and ask them to heft their batons in a very threatening manner whenever a student breathes without your express permission. Or at least ask him/her to pay more attention to what's going on in class.

yeah theres more, but my fingers hurt.

cheers!

[TheWB18]

I take it there's no way to become that 'magic teacher' who can just look at students and make them shut up when there's an almost insurmountable language barrier? 

What I'm asking is, any advice on cross-cultural intimidation and/or classroom presence hints?  Thanks.

[Yu_Bumsuk]

I take it there's no way to become that 'magic teacher' who can just look at students and make them shut up when there's an almost insurmountable language barrier? 

What I'm asking is, any advice on cross-cultural intimidation and/or classroom presence hints?  Thanks.

There's no magic solution but acting on obvious mishaviour the first time it occurs shows them that you are indeed for real and know what you're doing. The first time you see a phone or electronic device, take it. The first time you see a middle finger or hear a swear word, do something about it. The first time someone forgets a textbook or activities book, bring them to the back of the classroom to write lines. The first time someone throws something across the room, use whatever your preferred punishment is. This will show them right from the start that you have certain expectations in your class. Also, if it seems impossible to convince them that the English zone isn't a play zone, just teach them in their classroom seated in rows.

[TheWB18]

I learned the hard way once what happens when you ignore bad  behavior...actually it was really entertaining, my students would greet me every afternoon by hiding themselves in cabinets and under desks. Of course we accomplished nothing.

Thanks for the tips. For some reason I'd never have thought of writing lines.

[Yu_Bumsuk]

Thanks for the tips. For some reason I'd never have thought of writing lines.

You could wallpaper a house with the stacks of lines I've collected. What's odd is that although I'm the only teacher at school who does it, the students seem to accept it as a fair punishment. I always use it with first-time offenders for phones or MP3s.

[stemarty]

Try to make your lessons revelant to your students interests in order to perk their interest in the lesson. If it is something revelant to what they like and you use video clips and images with that theme, sometimes class participation will be better than reading straight from the textbook. Today I used Justin Beiber  for a directions lesson plan. I called it What's the Matter Justin? Justin needs our help" --it was a HUGE hit for my girls. Even the guys found it funny.

[fishead]

This is the most difficult time of the year. If you can make it to the winter vacation and still have a an ounch of sanity it's pretty much gravy once to get into March

[trendgame]

This thread is very useful thank you. I just wanted to add one thing on the subject of discipline as many people have suggested writing lines.

Taking this idea one step further it's a good punishment to get students to copy out full paragraphs. Lines are good but there's a quick way to get lines done which is by writing them in columns i.e. if the line is 'I will not bring my cell phone to English class'  they would write 'I' on every line all the way down the page, then 'will' all the way down, then 'not', then 'bring' and so on.

If you tell them to copy out a paragraph 5 times they have to keep looking up at the paragraph to follow it and must remain more engaged with the task rather than switching to auto pilot. I think this is a better punishment as it requires more attention and focus on part of the student and is something which can be marked/handed back if it is not done correctly.

Hope this works for you.

[nellw]

This thread is very helpful. It's comforting to know I'm not the only one having a few issues with classroom management.

I have a few ideas that I have found to be successful:
- If students are speaking while I'm trying to teach, I will move them away from their      friend(s) immediately or stand beside their desk - putting my hand on their desk if proximity doesn't work.
- I also just wait and give "the eye" until, eventually, they all catch on.
- To get their attention, I clap out a pattern, have them follow it and then expect quiet.         
- Sometimes I will start whispering instructions, which usually catches their attention.

Sometimes these things work, sometimes not. I think the key - most of the time - is having fun, interesting and interactive lessons as well as lots of patience!

[WorkingTitle3484]

Do what you need to do to keep yourself sane.

In my opinion, it's useless talking to Korean teachers to help with discipline outside of the classroom.  Many of them have resigned to the idea that "there's nothing we can do".

Develop a pattern that students are comfortable with.  IMO, you're switching it up too much.

What I would do, constantly reward the 8 who are good, both verbally and physically (por ejemplo, let them go early).  28's a lot to deal with, so you've gotta find out who the ringleaders are.  Isolate the ringleaders, reward the quieter knuckleheads.  Old war adage, kill the head and the body will fall.

Also, what YBS said, nip it in the bud early.  Don't let things slide, crack down on the madness before it escalates...because it WILL escalate.

At MS level, they're desperately seeking approval.  If you're visible with your actions, they'll be attracted to the positivity.

Before the bell rings, let the good students go early.  Keep the naughty ones for as long as you see fit, and plant yourself right at that door.  They wouldn't dare touch you in a menacing fashion.

[sffog]

this is probably a universal issue for all teachers. i tend to use positive reinforcement and "reaching-out" tactic by targeting the difficult ones off-line (lunch time or in the hall ways) and compliment them on their english skills/improvements and ask them for their help during class with specific behaviors.

[ArmoredButterfly]

I found a great article by a guy who solved a lot of discipline problems with some really good tactics. He taught teenagers and has an awesome no nonsense and no warnings philosophy.

http://teachers.net/lessons/posts/3142.html

Long article, but definitely worth a read if your classes are out of control.

[trendgame]

@ Armoured Butterfly - thanks for this link it's a great article. Full of great advice and tips, also a very encouraging read for any new teachers having any doubts or issues with the job in general. I bookmarked and will be referring to it often I should think. Thanks

[fishead]

 It's a wild beast. You can try to tame it. If there's a war of wills between the NET and the students the students will almost always win. Rather than fight that energy go with it. Harness it and make it work for you.
Just before the exams I was doing these running dictations from Andrew Finch's book Tell Me More.
At first I though there was no way this activity would work. But it did they were actually having more fun then when they play the bomb game. The only problem was policing the students who kept trying to take the dictation down. That was handled by some heavy duty tape

[Anor Londo]

Disciplinary issues are symptoms of larger problems: lack of attention, motivation, or an excess of emotion (stress or anxiety). From our perspective, it is rather easy to see unruly students as disrespectful and contemptible. When they rebel, we see them as adversaries if one goes along with the war analogy mentioned earlier. It's a nice simplification: students dislike their teachers so they show no respect, thus misbehave in class. But it's wrong.

This leads to missing the forest for the trees. The true adversaries are the assumptions we have; the labels we place on ourselves and the people around us; and the prejudice we uphold in the face of something different. Perhaps it is the system, the environment we live in that shape and distribute these labels, that is to blame. Maybe we just never know and we pretend we do by hanging onto easy packages of truth, such as a teacher knows best and students know jack shit. We got experience, a degree, and we pay rent; and they don't.

Probably the easiest thing to teach students these days is cynicism: most young people are experts by the time acne becomes a problem. It is a philosophy of unmasking all the shit people try to hide. More often than not, the worst students to control are usually cynics in the making. We can brush them aside, crush their spirit even more, embrace them, or isolate and disengage these students like pariahs. Regardless of which approach you take it remains that an aspect of their cynicism remains in us.

Our job as educators is to lead our students by unmasking the equivocal nature underlying conventional wisdom and the status quo. We will never succeed if we don't tell them that we're pretending; that we're just wearing a mask, playing the role of a teacher, in the same way we demand that they play the part of a student.

For if we continue to persist on this idea that students are animals, less than human, uncivilized, unable to overcome ignorance and savagery, unless they follow us and submit to our rule, then we're just bricks in the wall.

[kyndo]

...Our job as educators is to lead our students by unmasking the equivocal nature underlying conventional wisdom and the status quo. We will never succeed if we don't tell them that we're pretending; that we're just wearing a mask, playing the role of a teacher, in the same way we demand that they play the part of a student...

While your quote is well written, thoughtful, and generally true in a philosophical kind of way, its not very helpful 

Also, insofar as language teaching goes, I would disagree about conventional wisdom being equivocal. A verb is a verb, and a noun is a noun (unless it's a gerund, or part of a adverb clause, or...)

Also, I can barely convey to my students how I feel about them sleeping in class, so I seriously doubt that I'll be trying to communicate to them any time soon how I really am a human being just like them (even if I do speak a funny language, have funny coloured hair, and wear t-shirts with grunge-era band logos printed on them).

[fishead]

 Ultimately there is a fine line between the Issiac Dursk clown act and the Audio Lingual drill Sergent major.
Knowing when to play these charachers is crucial. The determining factors are the time of the year. The level of the students. This can also depend on both the Socio Economic region the actually level of the group you are teaching and the kind of school you are working in. For example you don't go into a technical school and expect them to do listen and repeat from Side By Side. Just as you wouldn't go to a Foreign Language High school and play the latest video from Justin Beaver.

 Keeping a journal helps. After every class make notes and change your curriculum for each level accordingly.