Religion in Public School and "Christian Preference"

[Driver 8]

As far as culture shock goes, the whole "We need to know if you're a Christian or not", mentality in a public school was one of the most mind blowing to me.  After all, I'm from the US,  where we practice separation of church and state in the public schools.  My first question:  Why is it such a big deal to principals and coworkers and in their minds, what does it have to do with who I am as a teacher?  Also, if you're not religious (like me),  how did you answer this question?  I finessed it, and borderline lied, basically.  What do you think about religion and spirituality not being considered a private matter here?  There are many things I like about Korea,  but their idea of privacy, or rather lack thereof, isn't one of them.

Also, I'm currently considering university positions.  What exactly does it mean when they say "Christian preferred, " or my favorite "Christian values preferred."  Do they actually base their hiring decisions on this?  Do schools and universities discriminate based on religion?  Will you be pressured to join their church if hired?  Bible study?  Do you know if  anyone has ever been fired for being an atheist?  What experience have others had with this? 

[daveb]

If you're not a christian, I would steer clear of those kinds of jobs. You can imagine all the ''extra-curricular'' expectations...

[Driver 8]

As far as culture shock goes, the whole "We need to know if you're a Christian or not", mentality in a public school was one of the most mind blowing to me.  After all, I'm from the US,  where we practice separation of church and state in the public schools.  My first question:  Why is it such a big deal to principals and coworkers and in their minds, what does it have to do with who I am as a teacher?  Also, if you're not religious (like me),  how did you answer this question?  I finessed it, and borderline lied, basically.  What do you think about religion and spirituality not being considered a private matter here?  There are many things I like about Korea,  but their idea of privacy, or rather lack thereof, isn't one of them.

I have never come across this issue with public schools. i would imagine it is unconstitutional for public schools to discriminate (though, I'm sure they do).

Who exactly has asked you your religion? It would surprise me if it were a hiring stipulation at PSs. Perhaps it was just people who are curious (thouh, acting somewhat rudely from you perspective), rather than an institutional thing. As I've said, I've never come across it. 

It was like the second or third question the previous principal asked me when she first met me.  The other  one was about my relationship status.    You say you've never heard of it.  Maybe it's more of a rural thing because Christianity and being an actively practicing Christian is a big deal where I am. 

I'm always amazed that the one day teachers and students have off, many of them go to church.  If I were a teenager in Korea,  that's the first thing I would rebel against and refuse to do.  Comparatively, we had a an easy upbringing in the US,  but that's exactly what my brother and I did after a while.

[archaeologist]

Maybe I can help here:

My first question:  Why is it such a big deal to principals and coworkers and in their minds, what does it have to do with who I am as a teacher

First, they are just trying to get to know you. Second, it tells them a little bit about how you will think, address issues, treat the students and helps them feel a little bit more cofortable in dealing with you.

Also, if you're not religious (like me),  how did you answer this question?  I finessed it, and borderline lied, basically.

You do not lie but simply answer the question- yes I am or no I am not. It is not rocket science and no fallout will occur unless it is a very fanatical place.

What do you think about religion and spirituality not being considered a private matter here?

Religion isn't 'private' anywhere though many people try to do so. If they belong to one of the protestant faiths that base their beliefs on the Bible, there is no such teaching on keeping faith private.

There are many things I like about Korea,  but their idea of privacy, or rather lack thereof, isn't one of them.

First, this is a different culture, there will be differences. Second, I have never had my privacy disrespected here. You have to adjust to the culture.

What exactly does it mean when they say "Christian preferred

It means, depending on who owns the university, that anyone can apply but those who are christian get top priority. Don't lie for if they find out the truth you get fired.

my favorite "Christian values preferred."

In other words, they do not want immoral drunks on staff. They do not want someone who carouses, drinks till they are drunk, promotes homsexuality, etc. They want clean living people who live by the Bible.

Do they actually base their hiring decisions on this?  Do schools and universities discriminate based on religion?

Answered by someone else.

Will you be pressured to join their church if hired?  Bible study?

In some cases the answer is 'yes' to both and in others the answer is 'no'. Just depends upon the principal staff and the owner of the school.

Do you know if  anyone has ever been fired for being an atheist

No. Though I have heard and saw a public school pressure a homosexual to quit. Which he did.

What experience have others had with this? 

Personally as a christian I do not work for other christians.  Like everywhere, there are good ones and bad ones and I have worked for both. I prefer to avoid such employers.

If I were a teenager in Korea,  that's the first thing I would rebel against and refuse to do. 

You are speaking from an unbelieving mind which is vastly different than a beliving one.

[Driver 8]

Archaeologist,

Thanks for your detailed response, albeit a biased one.

In other words, they do not want immoral drunks on staff. They do not want someone who carouses, drinks till they are drunk, promotes homsexuality, etc. They want clean living people who live by the Bible.

So it's not possible to lead a fairly clean lifestyle and be irreligious?  That's absurd.   What does "promoting homosexuality" mean?  If  someone happens to be one, does that mean they are promoting it?  I'm not one, but this is another thing that is no one's business, and it certainly isn't the school's business unless the student is dating a student or someone on staff.  Sorry.  I don't think what a teacher does in their personal time is the school's business unless it affects the teacher's ability to teach effectively, period!   If someone wants  to share his/her religion with the school or other aspects of their lives, that's their choice, but the school shouldn't pry into those matters.  I just plain disagree.

[Jrong]

It sounds to me that if they really are pressuring you to know if you're a Christian or not, it probably means that they would be very worried to find out that you're not a Christian.

If you're like many of us you came to Korea to avoid stressful work situations. That may not be the only reason but it's a major reason for many of us. If so, then don't make your life more stressful -- just lie about it. Say you're a Christian and that you believe in God and Jesus, you try to obey the commands in The Bible, and that you go to church a couple times a year...yada...yada...yada...

If they pressure you to go to church every week or whatever just say "I'm not that kind of Christian". They'll take comfort in the fact that you somewhat believe and at least you respect "The Bible". They'll think you're a decent enough guy and probably leave you alone if you're firm the first few encounters.

[Driver 8]

It sounds to me that if they really are pressuring you to know if you're a Christian or not, it probably means that they would be very worried to find out that you're not a Christian.

If you're like many of us you came to Korea to avoid stressful work situations. That may not be the only reason but it's a major reason for many of us. If so, then don't make your life more stressful -- just lie about it. Say you're a Christian and that you believe in God and Jesus, you try to obey the commands in The Bible, and that you go to church a couple times a year...yada...yada...yada...

If they pressure you to go to church every week or whatever just say "I'm not that kind of Christian". They'll take comfort in the fact that you somewhat believe and at least you respect "The Bible". They'll think you're a decent enough guy and probably leave you alone if you're firm the first few encounters.

Actually, I'm not being pressured constantly.  It was only in the beginning (when I felt the most vulnerable).   I  didn't mean to give the wrong impression. The posting was mostly a response to ads I was reading that asked for a Christian applicant.  It just got me thinking about the culture again, and I was wondering why it's a factor in some schools' selection processes. Mostly, I wanted to know about whether or not I should apply to a university that advertises for a Christian teacher.  I've gotten some good feedback about that question.  Thanks!

[cruisemonkey]

What exactly does it mean when they say "Christian preferred, " or my favorite "Christian values preferred."

I always took it to mean I should not even think about applying, and stay as far the Hell away from those institutions as possible.

[archaeologist]

Thanks for your detailed response, albeit a biased one.

UHmmm, so is your position I might add. You are not going to understand the christian mind or way of doing things if you only listen to unbelievers. they do not know and theiropinion is as biased as you claim my answer was.  Dr. William Dever, an archaeologist and scholar, wrote on pg. 83 in his book titled, Did God Have A Wife?', the following words:

Contrary to the "revisionists," biblical criticism, of any school that I know, has never claimed to be "objective." The distinguished Oxford professor emeritus James Barr has pointed out that that is a caricature. And not since the death of 19th century "positivism" have any respectable historians been naive enough to think that they could be objective overall. All that good historians claim is that we must attempt to be objective overall, and that, as Barr says, some degree of objectivity is better than none at all.

Instead of using 'bias' as a justification to dismiss what others say, you need to learn the difference bewteen someone telling you the reality and someone who is telling you any old answer because they are very biased.

[quoteSo it's not possible to lead a fairly clean lifestyle and be irreligious?  That's absurd][/quote]

That depends on your definition of 'fairly clean'.  Your idea of it may vastly differ from a christians idea of it. Some stop at carousing, drinking and doing drugs as being the limits of their definition BUT in the christian mind, and you admitted to doing this in your OP, lying is not part of a clean lifestyle even though YOU may think it is okay.

You have 2 different cultures at work here. You belong to the unbelieving one, regardless of the fact that you may not do things like Tiger Woods or Hugh Hefner (examples only and not limited to those 2 men), and you are considering working with one that is a believing culture with a different set of rules than what you have.

What does "promoting homosexuality" mean?  If  someone happens to be one, does that mean they are promoting it?

Exactly what it says. No.

[quoteI'm not one, but this is another thing that is no one's business, and it certainly isn't the school's business unless the student is dating a student or someone on staff.  Sorry.  I don't think what a teacher does in their personal time is the school's business unless it affects the teacher's ability to teach effectively, period!][/quote]

If you read your contract it MAY say that 'if your actions damages the reputation of the school...' so here in this country, yes they do have a say to SOME extent. Korea's culture is not the west's and you need to be careful in your personal life because you can be fired for actions that come back to hurt the school. The reputation of the school is more important than your personal life.

If someone wants  to share his/her religion with the school or other aspects of their lives, that's their choice, but the school shouldn't pry into those matters.  I just plain disagree.

You are free to disagree BUT it is their school and THEY get to set the rules. If you sign the contract then you are bound by your agreement to obey their rules. My suggestion is, do not sign with a christian school--I try to avoid it.

The posting was mostly a response to ads I was reading that asked for a Christian applicant.  It just got me thinking about the culture again, and I was wondering why it's a factor in some schools' selection processes.

This happens in the west as well. Christian organizations look for christians because they know that hiring non-believers is not compatible with their christian teachings.  To use an extreme example, the KKK is not going to allow a black man to enter their ranks, it is against their beliefs and practices. The same for a christian organization, the unbeliever has a different set of goals and purpose than a believer does and it does not help the christian organization to hire someone who is contrary to their believes, purpose and goals.

Now I am just participating to give you some understanding on the issue you raised.

if you want to live under a christian set of rules and can do so without problem, then apply. If not then don't. SOME chrisian places will leave you alone and others will pressure you. it is your choice and you should ask some pointed questions of them when you apply.

[justanotherwaygook]

Don't sign but please do go and report them to the proper authorities.  Religion needs to be kept out of public schools, and plenty of Koreans will agree with that. 

[Yu_Bumsuk]

Is it a 'public-public' school or a 'private-public' school? In other words, is it also governed partly by its own private board, even though it generally operates like any other school? If so, it might be nominally Christian, but for most purposes secular. Regardless of what kind it is, there may also be some conflict amongst the staff re: staff social life, with some of the male teachers wanting to have 'fun' in ways the puritans and feminists very much disapprove.

[Sara]

Please remember:

Posts or threads about religion or matters related, with the exception of providing links to the name, location, and times of officially recognized religious services may result in said post(s) being edited or thread being locked. The reason for this stance is that whilst freedom of expression is otherwise welcomed, such content is provocative and potentially inflammatory and moderators wish to prevent flamewars from occuring.

This is not a discussion about the religion, it is about hiring practices. This is your first warning.

[Harpoinseoul]

Korea is a polychronic culture and thus tends to get into people's personal space. In my own personal experience of 14 years in this country, I have found most christian employers to be very psychopathic evil BPD, in their approach to their employees. (Present employer excluded.) And I so happen to be a liberal christian.

[Driver 8]

Please remember:

Posts or threads about religion or matters related, with the exception of providing links to the name, location, and times of officially recognized religious services may result in said post(s) being edited or thread being locked. The reason for this stance is that whilst freedom of expression is otherwise welcomed, such content is provocative and potentially inflammatory and moderators wish to prevent flamewars from occuring.

This is not a discussion about the religion, it is about hiring practices. This is your first warning.

Am I being warned (or is it Archaeologist)?  I don't think I ever made this a discussion about religion or challenged one's religious viewpoint,  and that wasn't really my intent.  My post had to do with hiring practices and Korean school culture, of which religion is sometimes omnipresent.  I apologize if it seemed I was trying to stir something up.  That really wasn't my intent.

[AJasper64]

I do find it weird... and a little disrepectful.. that the grade 5 textbook has church as one of the vocabulary words.  And yet temple, which is a word for a religious building shared by many religions, including buddhism, isn't included. 

I was also asked about my religious choice, by two employers.  The hagwon boss had a problem with the fact that I wasn't Christian, and the principal of the public school was accepting.   In both cases though, it did not preclude my from getting the job or finishing the contract.   Generally, while some people may "look down at you" for not agreeing with their religious choice, for the most part I've found it to be a non issue.  You'd be wise just to be honest about it, and then avoid talking about the issue. 

[Spongeblob]

Define Christian.

Are we talking terms found in a certain edition, revision, testament, passage or psalms, translated thousands of times, strongly copied from older religion stories and individually interpreted by each pastor, priest, minister etc. who pick and choose what to say?  A vast corucopia of groups each claiming their answer is the right one.

My brother faithfully says his church is the only right one.  I don't know, I'm not biased, enlighten me.  Let's say he is right.  What church does he belong to?

[Andyroo]

Archaeologist,

Thanks for your detailed response, albeit a biased one.

In other words, they do not want immoral drunks on staff. They do not want someone who carouses, drinks till they are drunk, promotes homsexuality, etc. They want clean living people who live by the Bible.

So it's not possible to lead a fairly clean lifestyle and be irreligious?  That's absurd.   What does "promoting homosexuality" mean?  If  someone happens to be one, does that mean they are promoting it?  I'm not one, but this is another thing that is no one's business, and it certainly isn't the school's business unless the student is dating a student or someone on staff.  Sorry.  I don't think what a teacher does in their personal time is the school's business unless it affects the teacher's ability to teach effectively, period!   If someone wants  to share his/her religion with the school or other aspects of their lives, that's their choice, but the school shouldn't pry into those matters.  I just plain disagree.

You don't have to be Christian to fit into the "christian values preferred" category.

Archaeologist pretty much described what there looking for it's a much lesser degree of descrimination than "must be christian".

[Sara]

Am I being warned (or is it Archaeologist)?  I don't think I ever made this a discussion about religion or challenged one's religious viewpoint,  and that wasn't really my intent.  My post had to do with hiring practices and Korean school culture, of which religion is sometimes omnipresent.  I apologize if it seemed I was trying to stir something up.  That really wasn't my intent.

Don't worry, it's just a general reminder because I see where this discussion is going. If you had written something inappropriate, I would have sent you a message.

[Driver 8]

Archaeologist,

Thanks for your detailed response, albeit a biased one.

In other words, they do not want immoral drunks on staff. They do not want someone who carouses, drinks till they are drunk, promotes homsexuality, etc. They want clean living people who live by the Bible.

So it's not possible to lead a fairly clean lifestyle and be irreligious?  That's absurd.   What does "promoting homosexuality" mean?  If  someone happens to be one, does that mean they are promoting it?  I'm not one, but this is another thing that is no one's business, and it certainly isn't the school's business unless the student is dating a student or someone on staff.  Sorry.  I don't think what a teacher does in their personal time is the school's business unless it affects the teacher's ability to teach effectively, period!   If someone wants  to share his/her religion with the school or other aspects of their lives, that's their choice, but the school shouldn't pry into those matters.  I just plain disagree.

You don't have to be Christian to fit into the "christian values preferred" category.

Well then, couldn't they use words like "mature" or  "responsible?"  Also, some of the ads don't even use the words,  "values."  Of course,  we're dealing with language and culture differences, so who knows?   I suppose religion and lifestyle automatically go together in their minds.   These might be private schools.  I don't know.  I'd have to research them to say definitively.  If they are, I  suppose they have the right to base their hiring decisions on anything they want.

[Andyroo]

Archaeologist,

Thanks for your detailed response, albeit a biased one.

In other words, they do not want immoral drunks on staff. They do not want someone who carouses, drinks till they are drunk, promotes homsexuality, etc. They want clean living people who live by the Bible.

So it's not possible to lead a fairly clean lifestyle and be irreligious?  That's absurd.   What does "promoting homosexuality" mean?  If  someone happens to be one, does that mean they are promoting it?  I'm not one, but this is another thing that is no one's business, and it certainly isn't the school's business unless the student is dating a student or someone on staff.  Sorry.  I don't think what a teacher does in their personal time is the school's business unless it affects the teacher's ability to teach effectively, period!   If someone wants  to share his/her religion with the school or other aspects of their lives, that's their choice, but the school shouldn't pry into those matters.  I just plain disagree.

You don't have to be Christian to fit into the "christian values preferred" category.

Well then, couldn't they use words like "mature" or  "responsible?"  Also, some of the ads don't even use the words,  "values."  Of course,  we're dealing with language and culture differences, so who knows?   I suppose religion and lifestyle automatically go together in their minds.   These might be private schools.  I don't know.  I'd have to research them to say definitively.  If they are, I  suppose they have the right to base their hiring decisions on anything they want.

I could imagine them being public schools. People just aren't as sensitive to that sort of stuff here, and it's really a case of if you don't like it just avoid it. I would steer clear and be thankfull that they are so upfront like those jobs that advertise "women only"that you didn't waste your time.

And you don't know if that is the schools beliefs or just the person writing the commercial..... I have seen even low level staff members act very unprofessionally on this topic. A local kindergarten teacher took it on herself to teach the kids "gods way" and wasn't even appologetic when parents complained and the principal confronted her.