You guys can kiss your civil liberties good-bye.....

[unknownx]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/congress-passes-662-billion-defense-bill-aka-ndaa

"One provision would authorize the military to indefinitely detain without charge people suspected of involvement with terrorism, including United States citizens apprehended on American soil. Due process would be a thing of the past. Some claim that this provision would merely codify existing practice. Current law empowers the military to detain people caught on the battlefield, but this provision would expand the battlefield to include the United States — and hand Osama bin Laden an unearned victory long after his well-earned demise."


^Congress just passed the National Defense Authorization Act.....There goes the constitution. Emigration sounds like a good idea right now.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

 

Luckily I am not a US citizen.

[gtrain83]

I read about this last week I think. While I am not for it at all, and I am an American, I think it is funny how outraged ppl are now that it includes American citizens. When it was "terrorists" that Bush put in Gitmo with no due process or anything like that it was ok. Now it's an outrage? What if that American citizen was know to be working for some terrorist cell is it ok then? I am just wondering how it's ok in some cases but not in others. Just some food for thought.

[giselle]

I'm an American, but thank goodness my husband is a New Zealand citizen.  We will NOT be moving back to the US & will certainly NOT be raising our family there!!  I'm so disgusted, almost ashamed, and about ready to burn my damn passport.  Shame on you, America!

[summerthyme]

A few things:

1.  This is a friendly moderator preemptive reminder to keep comments civil and respectful of others and their cultures/government/political beliefs.  Not that I need to remind all of you upstanding forum posters about that, but still...

2.  @gtrain83, many Americans (including myself) didn't think it was OK at any point to detain people in Guantanamo without trial.

3.  The thought that this could include any Americans for basically any finger-pointing whatsoever (and I could easily see this getting extended to include people in the various Occupy and Occupy-inspired protests) is, frankly, terrifying, and I cannot express my deepest disappointment in my country's politicians. 

As an American, I'm appalled.

Full text of the actual bill is here:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1867es/html/BILLS-112s1867es.htm

Relevant detainment details are covered in sections 1031, 1032, and 1034.

(b) Covered Persons.--A covered person under this section is any
person as follows:
            (1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided
        the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or
        harbored those responsible for those attacks.
            (2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported
        al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in
        hostilities against the United States or its coalition
        partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent
        act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such
        enemy forces.

The bolded part is what troubles me.  What can (or will) be defined as an "associated force"  "engaged in hostilities"?

And there's this little gem from section 1032:

(4) Waiver for national security.--The Secretary of Defense
        may, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the
        Director of National Intelligence, waive the requirement of
        paragraph (1) if the Secretary submits to Congress a
        certification in writing that such a waiver is in the national
        security interests of the United States.

So, from what I understand, that makes it possible for *anyone* to be detained as long as the Secretary of Defense deems it in the best "national security interests" of the US?

Is there anyone out there with plenty of deskwarming time and a better knowledge of politics who could explain this to us?

Edit:  Here's a better link
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:2:./temp/~c112pmdVdi:e548990:

[gtrain83]

I agree that many people didn't think it was ok to detain people in Guantanamo, but many others did. Not trying to cause a firestorm but I know there will be many people who thought it was ok to do this years ago who will now flip flop b/c the word American is in there. Like the other people were not human and did not deserve proper due process.

And yes, it is scary as s%%t to think that you could be detained with no due process and kept somewhere forever being tortured or whatever else they would/could do. That is rediculous. Hopefully one day we will all come together, forget political party crap, and tell these numb nuts enough is enough.

[ch1can3]

Oops, misread!

[flasyb]

Sounds like the first steps toward military dictatorship. Give the security forces the right to arrest pretty much anyone and at any time. Then, detain them indefinitely.

Soon, people who protest will be labelled as posing a potential threat to national security. Then, your next right will be taken away (having had your right to due process already robbed). Awful, awful stuff.

[ch1can3]

There really isn't much you can do.  This already passed and SOPA (Stop Online Piracy Act) is going to pass with no problems and broad support by both parties and the president.  I'd say you should try and leave the USA permanently as soon as possible.  Do whatever you can to get out, because the coming economic destruction won't be pretty.

[kjmerri2]

Luckily I am not a US citizen.

No disrespect to you, dude, but that doesn't matter.  If these kinds of policies are becoming legally acceptable in one, it will start to get picked up by others.  I remember watching a documentary recently with an ex-British intelligence spy, and she was saying how England is moving in the same direction.  They also have laws on the books that make some of these kinds of things okay, but they may not necessarily be enforcing them at present.

I am a US citizen, and I'm constantly finding my country's politics a source of disappointment and shame.  Honestly, though, I'm not surprised.  The government's pulled this kind of thing on isolated groups throughout our history (Native Americans, blacks, Japanese-Americans, suspected "communists", Muslims, immigrants,...)  It was only a matter of time until they got the nerve to levy this kind of power openly against all citizens.

I always thought we should have (and should still) paid more attention to Dr. King..."A threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

[gookway]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/congress-passes-662-billion-defense-bill-aka-ndaa

"One provision would authorize the military to indefinitely detain without charge people suspected of involvement with terrorism, including United States citizens apprehended on American soil. Due process would be a thing of the past. Some claim that this provision would merely codify existing practice. Current law empowers the military to detain people caught on the battlefield, but this provision would expand the battlefield to include the United States — and hand Osama bin Laden an unearned victory long after his well-earned demise."


^Congress just passed the National Defense Authorization Act.....There goes the constitution. Emigration sounds like a good idea right now.

Agreed.  And people thought conspiracy theories were all a hoax or paranoid people.  The reality is IT'S HERE.  Police State / Martial Law.  They used TERRORISM as a sysops to scare you and make you agree to give up your freedom and rights for sake of security.

That's why we need Ron Paul to win.  That's why Martin Luther King was assassinated and same with JFK who were both opposed to secret societies, too much government, and the stripping away of our civil liberties.

Thomas Jefferson said "I'd rather live with the inconveniences of too much freedom than the inconveniences of too little."

VOTE RON PAUL! He's only one not part of this "NWO" to control you.

[unknownx]

There really isn't much you can do.  This already passed and SOPA (Stop Online Piracy Act) is going to pass with no problems and broad support by both parties and the president.  I'd say you should try and leave the USA permanently as soon as possible.  Do whatever you can to get out, because the coming economic destruction won't be pretty.

The American Empire is a global one. There's nowhere in the world they won't find you, especially if you're an American citizen. I think I'm going to stay and fight this as much as I can. Buy gold/silver, guns, stock up on guns/ammos. Take money out of big banks and put it in credit unions. Even the little things can help. However, the smell of revolution is in the air though, especially when you have 200 million gun owners. They can take my lead an copper before they take me.

[dbtm]

The American Empire is a global one. There's nowhere in the world they won't find you, especially if you're an American citizen. I think I'm going to stay and fight this as much as I can. Buy gold/silver, guns, stock up on guns/ammos. Take money out of big banks and put it in credit unions. Even the little things can help. However, the smell of revolution is in the air though, especially when you have 200 million gun owners. They can take my lead an copper before they take me.

-Timothy Mcveigh

[Schellib39]

I'm an American, but thank goodness my husband is a New Zealand citizen.  We will NOT be moving back to the US & will certainly NOT be raising our family there!!  I'm so disgusted, almost ashamed, and about ready to burn my damn passport.  Shame on you, America!

So instead of just threatening "to burn my damn passport", why don't you do it already?  Actions speak a lot louder than words.  Maybe America would be better off without you if you think it is such a terrible place.....Actually I am asking you to burn your passport.

[Schellib39]

If you are not involved in any illicit/illegal then this will not affect you...simple as that.  Follow the laws, do what is right when nobody is looking and do what you can to contribute positively to society and things such as this shouldn't be an issue.

[Damien]

Stupidity breads hate. Stop throwing stones and saying how stupid it it. Actually do something about it. Write your congressman and act on it.

[unknownx]

The American Empire is a global one. There's nowhere in the world they won't find you, especially if you're an American citizen. I think I'm going to stay and fight this as much as I can. Buy gold/silver, guns, stock up on guns/ammos. Take money out of big banks and put it in credit unions. Even the little things can help. However, the smell of revolution is in the air though, especially when you have 200 million gun owners. They can take my lead an copper before they take me.

-Timothy Mcveigh

You can defend our kletocratic-facist government if you want, but I would gladly die defending the United States Constitution.....

[jurassic82]

I'm an American, but thank goodness my husband is a New Zealand citizen.  We will NOT be moving back to the US & will certainly NOT be raising our family there!!  I'm so disgusted, almost ashamed, and about ready to burn my damn passport.  Shame on you, America!

I don't know what scares me more. The American government or the people on this board. I am American and even though I am not at all happy or proud of the way things are going in my country, there are still many things I am proud of. This would most definitley not be my government, failed health care system, crumbling infrastructure and aggressive military intervention abroad. When I look at the things I am proud of America it would be innovative people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and influential civil rights leaders like Malcom X and Martin Luther King. America brought the world some of the greatest inventions over the last century like the airplane, computer, automobile and the list goes on and on.

I think it has become to easy and almost cliche' to bastardize America for everything. America is still a great place when it comes to innovation and education (well at least college and university). Also, even though there is still a lot of xenophobia in America there is a lot more acceptence of religion and multiculturalism than say countries in Asia and the Middle East. Of course this is debatable. Racism and Xenophobia is a problem that all countries face but I still believe America is more accepting than most other countries in the world. I think if America wants to be great again they need to take a look at what has worked in other countries and focus more on domestic problems than abroad. Too much is wasted on being this emperialistic power when things are falling apart back home. Anyways, these are just my own personal ideas and they are up to debate. 

[dbtm]

It's not my government.

Why would you want to die defending a country that doesn't even provide healthcare for its citizens and leaves seniors and veterans to rot in the cold streets?

[flasyb]

If you are not involved in any illicit/illegal then this will not affect you...simple as that.  Follow the laws, do what is right when nobody is looking and do what you can to contribute positively to society and things such as this shouldn't be an issue.

I'd disagree with that. New terror legislation is something to be frightened of. As someone mentioned, the UK is doing similar stuff. Under terror legislation in the UK, the police can arrest and detain you on a "suspicion" of involvement in terrorism. They're also notorious for stopping and searching people under terror legislation who have nothing to do with terrorism (they can't search the people they want to search under previously existing laws so they search them under terror laws instead even though they know that they have no evidence to suggest that the person they are searching is involved in terrorist activity). More recently, the British police put the people protesting in front of St Paul's Cathedral in London in a list of terrorist organisations alongside the Taliban, Al Qaida and FARC. This is so that they can do what they want to the protesters under the terror laws.

These laws will be used to harass innocent people who are expressing their civil liberties but that the police and their bosses disagree with. They always are.