You guys can kiss your civil liberties good-bye.....

[woman-king]

What is detestable and abhorrent about wanting fairness and justice in a society?  What is detestable and abhorrent to me is the political-ideological factionalism in the US.

Frankly, I'm not annoyed by the US government monitoring landline phones, cell phones, e-mail, texts, etc.  Like I said, if you don't do the crime you don't have to worry about doing the time.  I get annoyed by businesses like that www.river.com tracking my product surfing on their website and continually sending me unwanted e-mails for things I don't want or need.

I think there are a lot of people out there like me who wouldn't have any problem with "the state" having much more control over our lives (i.e. limit our civil liberties) if we knew that 'the state' was working for the people to promote justice and a greater equality than what exists now. The problem we have is that 'the state' is owned by people who only have their own best interests in mind, not those of the people. For many of us it's not so much about "not having civil liberties" it's more about "do the people in control have our best interests at heart or not". My answer: The owners of this country don't support my own interests or the interests of those I care about so I demand my civil liberties.

Also, many of us believe that the idea of there actually being "benevolent owners of a country" is kind of unrealistic and impossible at this stage in history and that's why we settle for second best: full civil liberties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI

What a terrifying statement.  That's not a point of debate, I simply a hard time believing people with such an ideology actually still exist.  Congrats, I suppose.

Really? What's terrifying is seeing people with such a lack of basic knowledge about foreign affairs and politics in general comment on topics like these. Comeon now, no one here is an expert on politics or knows exactly why the world is the way it is (we are-u teacha in Korea!), but you can't ride the short bus to the school of political debate (i.e. not even know who Awlaki or Khan is and espouse lame ideas coming straight out of a propagandized American textbook or the "lamestream media") and expect to be taken seriously...but then somehow you're still commenting on this topic and people are still responding to you despite your obvious ignorance.

Honestly, I don't take any of us very seriously but the confidence with which you exercise your ignorance is really laughable! You have me crackin' up!  My advice: save up a bunch of money. Travel the world. Make rich friends, poor friends, live in a mansion, live in a slum or ghetto and then come tell me what you think is terrifying b/c I'm guessing you have 0 experiential authority to talk on anything related to civil liberties (i.e. this topic doesn't practically affect you or anyone that you love in an incredibly negative way -- it's just theoretical to you).

Man, you assume quite a lot in your last paragraph there for someone you're talking to facelessly on the Internet!  This isn't actually just a theoretical I'm-so-bored conversation for me.  I can tell you that I have extended family members of Iraqi descent with absolutely no criminal history of any kind (but a history of American military service) who dealt with some pretty unexpected legal investigations after 9/11 due to being contacted by distant relatives of theirs who were still in Iraq.  People they barely knew, and wanted little to do with.  My relatives weren't imprisoned or anything, but it's very easy for me to see how an innocent person could be considered guilty by association and I find this law disturbing.  I don't really feel like that one experience "proves" any of my opinions but be assured, I have personal concern about the law the thread is specifically discussing.  However, I indeed do not have friends or relatives living in countries where their civil liberties and human rights are restricted by the government, I have no idea if you do or not, and wouldn't presume to know.  Come on.   

And look, as you've brought it up I believe three times now, I can certainly admit I'm no great expert on U.S. foreign policy and of course get my information from the media or other publications (mostly online, in Korea) and not from any personal sort of experience in or with the U.S. government or miliary.  That's not ideological.  A patronizing belief towards civil liberties, where they are merely seen as necessities of an imperfect system that should be eradicated if/when a government and economic system with our "best interests at heart" (however the hell you define that) certainly is.  I'm glad you think the existence of such a system is unrealistic at least for now, and also don't seem to be a fan of this new law, but I think it's precisely this kind of attitude towards civil liberties that is a driving force behind it and other similar civil liberty erosions that have been made since 9/11.  And yeah, I find that all terrifying.

[Jrong]

However, I indeed do not have friends or relatives living in countries where their civil liberties and human rights are restricted by the government

That's kinda obvious.

I can certainly admit I'm no great expert on U.S. foreign policy

^ well that's an understatement.    ha ha!

Look, Ms. "I-take-myself-way-too-seriously", I can see how you tried to "reframe" the argument earlier by calling certain things terrifying -- common tactic to make something look extreme and then present your view as moderate. I found it hilarious, though, b/c of what you've written on this topic so far and am still wondering where on earth you got the courage to post on this topic (something you really don't know about). You have more courage than Obama asking for his drone back....heard about that one yet? It's been all over the news for a while .

[woman-king]

However, I indeed do not have friends or relatives living in countries where their civil liberties and human rights are restricted by the government

That's kinda obvious.

I can certainly admit I'm no great expert on U.S. foreign policy

^ well that's an understatement.    ha ha!

Look, Ms. "I-take-myself-way-too-seriously", I can see how you tried to "reframe" the argument earlier by calling certain things terrifying -- common tactic to make something look extreme and then present your view as moderate. I found it hilarious, though, b/c of what you've written on this topic so far and am still wondering where on earth you got the courage to post on this topic (something you really don't know about). You have more courage than Obama asking for his drone back....heard about that one yet? It's been all over the news for a while .

Oh, Jrong.  This "I can't believe you dare to post again" thing twice?  I'm not shutting up and going away because I didn't know something, and it's pretty obvious now that's what you want.  Interestingly, you haven't engaged any real ideas much of what I wrote despite responding to me, which is its own cheap "tactic."

Indeed I am aware of the drone issue, I always like to see Obama get a little ballsy (he has more than the right gives him credit for, in my opinion).  I check CNN/BBC's websites pretty obsessively, and I did know there were headlines about getting a couple of key Al-Qaeda figures in September, but regrettably tuned it out as "war on terror, more of the same," so I was unaware about his (and his son's) American citizenship until it was brought up here.  I have no problem saying that was rather stupid and I should be more educated on current affairs, but sadly for you, not a mistake that I think disqualifies me from this conversation.  I can admit I don't know something, read more about it, learn, all that good stuff.  These kinds of conversations are always a good reason to do that. 

And trust me, I'm not trying to make anything "look extreme."  That's simply my honest opinion of what you stated you believe.   

[Jrong]

I'm not shutting up and going away because I didn't know something, and it's pretty obvious now that's what you want.

Actually, I think this (^) is another case of you taking yourself a little too seriously. I really don't care what you do, although when you post on here it does provide some comedy.  Have a Merry Xmas!

[ovid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1I-DScUGvw
(skip to 0:52 for deja vu)

Merry Christmas to both of you!

[makeshiftb0y]

This.

[Keuka]

That's a fair question, Davox.  I was back in the US when the Bush Administration gave the investigative branches of the government more power to check what library books you were reading.  No, I didn't like it, or any of the other newer laws giving the government greater snooping powers, but I still think a good way to protect your civil rights is to know them and use them actively.  But I'm back in Korea for good.   I'm more and more focused upon integrating more and more into Korean society than trying to retain my "Americain=ness," if you can call it that. 



 

[Jrong]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1I-DScUGvw
(skip to 0:52 for deja vu)

Merry Christmas to both of you!

Ha ha! That was perfect man! Merry Christmas to you too, ovid!

If waygook.org gave out awards, woman_king and jrong would both tie for second place in the "Most Petty Poster of the Year" award (right behind rusty shackleford). So sad . Early New Year's resolution: Stop spending so much time in petty arguments and spend more time doing something meaningful.

[Harpoinseoul]

This conversation is probably much like a Deja-vu of the 1930s under Hitler's Germany. The Nazification of America. The U$A is not OK.

[WorkingTitle3484]

The Nazification of America. The U$A is not OK.

I'm all for the Nachofication of USA .  Merry Christmas!!

[Keuka]

I'll agree with this statement, "The US is not OK."  And I don't see one single unifying candidate in either the Democratic or the Republican parties.  Uh, sorry.  I went off topic...

[waldron1983]

I guess I will speak for the minority, well the minority on here.

For those of us who remember september 11th, that will be forever burned into our memory. others forget. perhaps folks from countries not effected by Islamic terrorists would be quick to judge us. But walk a mile in our shoes first.  I was in London a month after the 2005 subway bombings. It was horrific. The black stained walls of the tube, as our train slowed in that area. disturbing.

President Bush did the right thing with the Patriot Act. And this current installment changed nothing concrete. It was simply a soapbox for those who wish to protect the enemy as opposed to defending our people. WAR is not pretty. Terrorists dont sign treaties. This is a different kind of war. And we need unconventional weapons to fight it.

I can understand the concerns folks have. But remember, our government is not a faceless entity. It is made up of 3 branches. A court system, a legislature of 535 mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters. And a man who I think loves our country (Obama). I am a republican and I voted against and will again Obama, but I dont think he or congress have some evil nWO insane conspiracy agenda.

I have faith in my country and our leaders. After all WE choose them. We have no kings, no emperors, no appointed czars. We are still the last great beacon of hope for freedom and democracy and justice in this world. That is what makes us who we are. We are every nation. My ancestors hailed from England and Ireland. I am proud to have that blood, but I am even more proud to be an American.

We have thr right to defend ourselves. We have the right to make this world safe. We have the right to take out those who would threaten freedom, democracy, and our very lives. We will be committed to "bringing peace and democracy" throughout the world-JFK.

Complain. Shout us down. Spit on us. Burn our flag. But you only make our hearts stronger, more resiliant, and determined to win. And make no mistake, to those who would attack us or tear us down: We will never surrender. We will never be defeated. We will triumph. Because we are just, we are right, We are the United States of America. We are Americans.

[bobrocket]

I have faith in my country and our leaders. After all WE choose them. We have no kings, no emperors, no appointed czars. We are still the last great beacon of hope for freedom and democracy and justice in this world. .
Complain. Shout us down. Spit on us. Burn our flag. But you only make our hearts stronger, more resiliant, and determined to win. And make no mistake, to those who would attack us or tear us down: We will never surrender. We will never be defeated. We will triumph. Because we are just, we are right, We are the United States of America. We are Americans.

Sounds like a Bruce Willis movie.

Hitler was elected.

Every country that has over extended its military in the quest for global dominance seems to suffer.

If terrorism is the problem, stop attacking and invading other country's.
It's not a new kind of war, it's just happening in your backyard and that pisses people off, it's all fine when it's on the other side of the world and you can read about it while sipping your latte.

Eventually the rest of the world is just going to get pissed off and we probaly won't let you get invaded by china but we'll set you up with a nice Australian government.

If the government controls everything and decides to go rouge, what can the people do?

[waldron1983]

Sounds like a Bruce Willis movie.

Hitler was elected.

Every country that has over extended its military in the quest for global dominance seems to suffer.

If terrorism is the problem, stop attacking and invading other country's.
It's not a new kind of war, it's just happening in your backyard and that pisses people off, it's all fine when it's on the other side of the world and you can read about it while sipping your latte.

Eventually the rest of the world is just going to get pissed off and we probaly won't let you get invaded by china but we'll set you up with a nice Australian government.

If the government controls everything and decides to go rouge, what can the people do?

we are not trying to take over anything. however, there are times when military action is needed. and no, i dont think war is a good thing...however it is a necessary evil. and as far as the rest of the world goes...we help more eople around the globe than anyone else. from billions to help the AIDS epidemic in Africa, to being there to rescue thousands in the Manila floods, to freeing young women under the rule of the Taliban. I find it sickening when I hear people who simply want to bitch about us and try to paint us as bad or imperialists.

the truth is no matter how much the people of he UK, France, Australia badmouth us and have animosity towards us (for simply defending our interests) we woul quickly lay down countless lives to defend you. Our fathers, brothers, grandfathers died for The french, the british, the filipino, the korean, the iraqi, the afghan,and numerous others. While American blood spills in the process of freeing fellow men, only the cowards, the pessimists, and the eartless would complain...while they enjoy our perpetual protection.

IF the Iranians cut off that oil route and blockade oil to Europe/US/Australia and so on...WHO will have the guts to stop them?

We will. And the rest of the "developed world" will simply turn their heads, then reap the benefits, all while chiding us for our Imperialistic ways. The cheap seats must be nice.

[Frozencat99]

Wow, it's like I'm really reading a pamphlet encouraging me to buy war bonds.

In the real world, however, it appears that you will not triumph, nor are you resilient. You're overconfident though... I mean, how long ago was the Middle East supposed to be "liberated"?

Back to the OP, I hope that updates with this topic continue to be as widespread and prevalent as things move forward. Sometimes it seems people forget about important things for a few moments and all of a sudden we're faced with more civil liberty laws.

[waldron1983]

some very typical tripe responses. love of one's country, and the belief in justice for the abused, democracy and freedom are not popular these days. especially with faceless spoiled cowards like the Ocuupiers and cowards that hide behind plastic taiwanese masks of an English terrorist. Adulthood is being pushed waaaaaaayyyyyy back for many.

[kukine]

Seems to be a very heated topic. The question is which side is more extreme? The pessimistic "rebels" or the "imperialists." Hard to tell what's just bias rhetoric

[ovid]

happy new year.. it's been signed into law by obama.

interestingly enough on new year's day.

[Frozencat99]

some very typical tripe responses. love of one's country, and the belief in justice for the abused, democracy and freedom are not popular these days. especially with faceless spoiled cowards like the Ocuupiers and cowards that hide behind plastic taiwanese masks of an English terrorist. Adulthood is being pushed waaaaaaayyyyyy back for many.

I love my country and there is nothing wrong with doing so, provided you're not just buying into nationalist propaganda speeches. If you truly think your country believes in worldwide justice for the abused, democracy, and freedom, you should probably rectify the glaring problems with those that exist in your own country before you play world police with everyone else.

I'll be interested in following the ramifications this bill will have in Canada, since we're just mimicking most everything the US does with Harper in power.

[KLM]

IF the Iranians cut off that oil route and blockade oil to Europe/US/Australia and so on...WHO will have the guts to stop them?

We will. And the rest of the "developed world" will simply turn their heads, then reap the benefits, all while chiding us for our Imperialistic ways. The cheap seats must be nice.

Who's this "we"? You've got a post in general discussion in which you pine for pina coladas and tater tots. If something starts going down, it sounds like you're going to be fighting the war at home, on the front lines at Cracker Barrel and Golden Corral.

Waldron's Battle Hymn:
http://youtu.be/XtDHKuIAlcU