Corporal Punishment

[Ollie84]

I don't know if the law has changed. It was changed before but changed back. Regardless, I wondered if people have witnessed corporal punishment in Korea. I am personally against it.  I've seen it various times.

I worked in Yeosu for a year, two years ago. On one occasion there, I witnessed a powerful, more than 6ft teacher, cane 6 1st grade elementary kids on the bare soles of their feet. The students were kneeled down in a row and caned in turn. The teacher's face was red with anger and he screamed in rage with each stroke. He had clearly lost control. The kids were beyond crying. Actually, I couldn't even watch. The incident happened in the hallway, so other students and teachers were aware of what was happening.

 I walked out of the school and started packing my bags. I should have left but instead reported it and stayed for my kids. He wasn't fired. No-one was. There may have been a reshuffle but thats about it. The really sad thing is that because his classroom was directly opposite mine, I often heard young elementary students scream and cry from his classroom. One time I heard a girl crying after class, and she tried to call her mom from the school pay phone. The teacher was sadistic.

I've also witnessed corporal punishment, with sticks, in Suwon and Seoul.

I wonder if anyone else has witnessed it?

[WorkingTitle3484]

Sure I've witnessed it since then.  The ban hasn't really trickled down to other provinces.  Just the other day, I saw students catch a stick to the hand, which isn't really that bad. 

Personally, I'm for it, but I respect your opinion to be against it.  I won't go into specifics, and I concede that teachers should never be angry when applying punishment.

[Ollie84]

what I saw was worse than these cases.



At the time I was fresh to Korea, young and naive. I was advised against reporting to the police. I wish had.

[cruisemonkey]

I was the only teacher in my Gyeongnam, boys middle school who didn't carry a stick (my 'weapon' was 'the look'). Occasionally, I'd send a 'bad apple' out into the freezing cold/swealtering hot hallway to kneel with his hands held straight up above his head... on one occasion, the entire class... LOL.

At the risk of being accused of being sexist, I'll say the K, female teachers were more brutal than the males in weilding the stick (I'm talking wealts, bruises & blood) when they completely 'lost it'. However, I never saw a female 'deck' a kid square in the jaw (and knock him out), as I did with a male teacher.

Beatings with sticks in the go-mu-shiel were an almost daily occurance.

[Wonju?]

Yesterday was my first day at my school. My main co teacher is great. She showed me around the school and introduced me to the students. All the teachers were so kind. The teachers and students seemed to have a good relationship, the students seemed to always be in and out of the staff room. And then I saw a teacher pull a students hair. We were asked to leave because he didn't want us to see it and I'm grateful, but I still know what happened. It didn't seem that painful for the student, but it was so uncomfortable for me. Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with these situations when they occur?

[fishead]

Yesterday was my first day at my school. My main co teacher is great. She showed me around the school and introduced me to the students. All the teachers were so kind. The teachers and students seemed to have a good relationship, the students seemed to always be in and out of the staff room. And then I saw a teacher pull a students hair. We were asked to leave because he didn't want us to see it and I'm grateful, but I still know what happened. It didn't seem that painful for the student, but it was so uncomfortable for me. Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with these situations when they occur?

Do nothing . You're not in Kansas anymore.

[Kev20]

I like the idea of army style punishments at my school which doesn't involve hitting but things like push-ups and other strange physical tests that are difficult to explain.

[yeti08]

I like the idea of army style punishments at my school which doesn't involve hitting but things like push-ups and other strange physical tests that are difficult to explain.

This definitely.  It hurts and embarrasses them, but it doesn't involved hitting.  I am at a hagwon and a co-teacher of mine does this stuff all the time.  The kids hate it and it usually works.

[archaeologist]

Maybe I casn offer some advice here on this issue, I have been involved with Korea and Koreans off and on for 47 years and there ar some things you should know. This

Do nothing . You're not in Kansas anymore

is the best advice you are going to get. Why? Well allow me to put things into perspective for you. 

#1. You are a TEMPORARY, FOREIGN, ASSISTANT teacher. Your complaints mean nothing. You are the BOTTOM of the totem pole, if you are on it at all.

#2. You are NOT the boss of the Korean teachers. You were hired to ASSIST in teaching English NOT to supervise the Korean Teachers aor their behavior. they HAVE their supervisers already. They are called the head teachers, head of school affairs, vice-principal, and principal. Not you.

#3. Western sensibilities, practices, laws do not apply here. This is Korea NOT the west. It doesn't matter if YOU are against corporal punishment, it doesn't matter if the western schools do not allow it, Korea has its own rules and they apply here. The Gyeonggi law was implemented on the PROVINCIAL level BUT the FEDERAL MOE scaled it back and the KOREAN teachers are well aware of what they can and cannot do. They do NOT need your permission to apply discipline in the schools.

SMOE's law has NOT been implemented yet as their head of education was recently jailed and charged with a crime(s). So far that law has not been voted in under the new head of Seoul education. Those teachers (see #2) also know what they can and cannot do and what you feel doesn't matter.

#4. If you go to the police, it will be ignored and you could get yourself into trouble for libel or filing false claims. Then ythe schools will be free to fire you and owe you nothing. You have NO standing to make a complaint. The chain of command is very strong in Korea and you will violate if you go over the heads of YOUR BOSSES. They are in charge, you are NOT.

#5. If YOU do not like corporal punishment too bad. This is Korea and they do things differently here. If you cannot handle it--then give your notice and leave the country. You have to adjust to Korea, they do NOT have to adjust to you. This is their culture and their country and they have the right, not you, to determine how their educational systems will be run and what punishments will be administered.

#6. Walking out means nothing for they will just replace you with another person. Your protest is of little consequence (see #1 & 2) because you are not in charge and have NO authority here. 

This may sound harsh but that is the way it is. The stick they use is called a 'love stick' and it is usually used a in proper manner, granted some teachers go to far and cross the line but that is not your problem, that is the problem for the vice-principal and principal. They are in charge and they have the authority to deal with it. Anger is used a lot here, just like the west, so don't hypocrite yourselves by using that as some justification for your actions or 'protests'. Teachers get angry all the time.

Oh and one final thing, I doubt any of you are privy to the rules and instructions given to the Korean students by their home room teachers. You do not know the severity of the students violations of those rules, you cannot judge. Taking the student's word over the teacher's can also cause you problems for you do not know the whole story.

I never interfere with a teacher's discipline of a student. That is the parent's job not yours and believe me, if the teacher goes too far, they do complain and take action. You are not the 'savior' of the Korean student, you are an assistant foreign teacher who may not be back next year. Please learn your boundaries because Korea is not the west where the EMPLOYEE gets in the face of THEIR EMPLOYER (you do not 'confront' an KT).

[yeti08]

I don't agree with much this man says, but that was pretty spot on. 

[Spongeblob]

Well, I agree with archaeologist.   :o  He summed it up pretty good.  We are at the bottom of the totem pole.  I don't think you need to pack it in and leave if you disagree with what you see though.  Things can change. (Nah, not likely.  I agree with that point too.)  Anywho, there are better ways to motivate and you can still politely suggest it.  Just realize it probably will not do anything but make trouble for you.  All that being said if you see a murder being committed for goodness sake intervene.  I think all of us would probably be upset with some of the stuff that was seen by the posters.  It does boil down to a personal judgement call for every teacher as to what limits we can tolerate.   Also, the old school discipline style does work.  I don't use it myself but in moderation it is and was effective.  (Not every teacher has the control to use it properly and woe to the person who tells them otherwise.)

Please remember we are the bottom of the totem pole but without our support the entire pole might fall over or at least be weaker.   :)

[archaeologist]

All that being said if you see a murder being committed for goodness sake intervene.

Yes, use your common sense but do not intervene in domestic violence situations. You will lose. (unless she is being killed)

I think all of us would probably be upset with some of the stuff that was seen by the posters

I have seen some things that i have not liked but if the school respects you at all, they will take it out of the teachers room or wait till you are not there to do the discipline. I have had that happen a lot. Let me tell you a funny story--

In one high school I workled in the second year I was there they principal put a very gung ho teacher in charge of discipline and he took his job to heart. I think you all know the type. Well by this time the school knew that I didn't like my classes to be interupted, for any reason and they did what they could to accomodate me.

Well one day, this gung ho teacher was going class to class, calling students in the hall to punish them for whatever infraction they may have committed. It just happened that he picked my class time to do this. We could hear him come down the hall, there was the knock knock, the door opening and closing, the whack whack whack the door opening and closing then the steps to the next door.

The students started to get nervous as he approached our classroom. Finally he came. He knocked, opened the door walked in and started to read names. Then he must have realized somethign as he stopped, looked up and saw me. He started to apologize and backed out of the room closing the door after him and went on to the next classroom.

The co-teacher turned to me and said 'the students love you as you just spared them discipline.'  I finished the lesson. They still got disciplined but at a later time. You do not have to make a drama or production out of your preference against CP. They know how you feel if you tell one co-teacher but you can't tell them they are wrong (they aren't according to their culture, their bosses), you just have to say you do not like it and leave it at that.

[ironopolis]

I'd agree that archaeologist's earlier post summed things up pretty well.

But there's a further point to bear in mind, which he/she didn't mention. That is that there are quite a few cases here where students themselves would probably prefer the corporal punishment they could receive in school here over some of the equivalent severe punishments they might receive in a western school.

I once explained to a co-teacher how when I was a PS teacher in my home country, a common severe punishment was the detention, where students would be kept at school for 30 - 60 minutes; I also mentioned another one might be keeping them in class at break time and making them write lines. She was quite shocked and felt that these amounted to a kind of mental torture and were considerably more barbaric than "responsibly administered" corporal punishment. She, incidentally, was a teacher who I'd never known use CP and indeed had pretty excellent class management skills.

That was about 4 years ago, and since then I've asked about 10 or so students of various ages about it. Just about all of them said the same as that teacher - that those punishments in my home country, like detention/lines etc., would be way too strict, and they'd see them as several levels worse than a whack or two with the "love stick".

[yeti08]

Agreed on the 'I'd rather have corporal punishment than some Western methods'.  In elementary grade 5 I refused to dance with a mentally handicapped girl who smelled bad.  (Don't give me any BS I was 10.)  Because of my peaceful strike I had to write George Washington's rules during gym class and recess for a week.  This was 1990.  I'd much rather have been paddled, forced to dance with her, and end of story.

[kiwikimchi]

I'd agree that archaeologist's earlier post summed things up pretty well.

But there's a further point to bear in mind, which he/she didn't mention. That is that there are quite a few cases here where students themselves would probably prefer the corporal punishment they could receive in school here over some of the equivalent severe punishments they might receive in a western school.

I once explained to a co-teacher how when I was a PS teacher in my home country, a common severe punishment was the detention, where students would be kept at school for 30 - 60 minutes; I also mentioned another one might be keeping them in class at break time and making them write lines. She was quite shocked and felt that these amounted to a kind of mental torture and were considerably more barbaric than "responsibly administered" corporal punishment. She, incidentally, was a teacher who I'd never known use CP and indeed had pretty excellent class management skills.

That was about 4 years ago, and since then I've asked about 10 or so students of various ages about it. Just about all of them said the same as that teacher - that those punishments in my home country, like detention/lines etc., would be way too strict, and they'd see them as several levels worse than a whack or two with the "love stick".

Here at the middle school I am at, writing lines and staying after class are common. Keeping students after class is personally what I use.
It works well with some students but the worst of the worst don't give a s=#t.

It seems that the most Korean teachers here don't really know how to control and implement a good disipline system. Because there are no consequences to their actions and the students don't have to worry about having to face something bad.

[Peekay1982]

Well, I agree with archaeologist.   :o 

Me too. I'm scared... (and he didn't need to write YOU quite so much)

[ironopolis]

Here at the middle school I am at, writing lines and staying after class are common. Keeping students after class is personally what I use.
It works well with some students but the worst of the worst don't give a s=#t.

Same back home - works ok with some students, doesn't at all with others. I remember some kids in schools I worked at in England for whom just having to take the detention notification form home to their parents was sufficient to ensure they never seriously transgressed again. But there were other students whose detention would actually be more a punishment for the teacher than the student.

[revenomade]

This is not meant to be rhetorical. I would truly like to know the logic behind this.

There are lots of instances at my school where a boy or boys will hit other students (both girls and other boys). Obviously, hitting other students is something that should be punished. However, many teachers will then punish those students by hitting them themselves. Which I really don't understand. It's like you're telling them not to hit by hitting yourself! It doesn't make ANY sense to me!! What is their logic behind doing this?? Also, it's not professionally administered either. They hit them with their hands (on the head or face), throw them against the wall, punch them, etc. REALLY violent.

Koreans out there - PLEASE tell me how hitting kids teaches them not to hit other kids!