Author Topic: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying  (Read 1073 times)

Offline anichion

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Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« on: December 27, 2011, 08:42:40 am »
This is an opinion piece published in the Joongang Daily, discussing the recent suicides of teenagers in Korea due to extreme bullying by fellow students. Or, if want, monsters in schools uniforms.

http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2946153

It's high time the MOE take serious action to deal with this problem, before it becomes a national headache. Otherwise, instead of kids killing themselves, there might be a "Columbine" incident here in the near future.

Offline Yu_Bumsuk

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2011, 08:58:22 am »
"American and British schools can be seen as good examples in this area, as they tend to show zero tolerance for bullying."

This sounds about as well informed as Barrack Obama praising Korea's long school hours.  Basically that highly repetative piece ends up offering almost zero practical solutions. How about something useful like teaches being able to access the CCTV cameras around their classrooms from their school computers, or locking the doors to the roofs, or designating a teacher to patrol the school during staff meetings?

In any case, it isn't such a huge issue at my school, which I'm pretty sure has less serious bullying than most US and UK schools.


Offline Jrong

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2011, 08:58:40 am »
Thanks for posting this. It's a touchy subject and I'm sure all of us "teachers" here have different ways of approaching it.
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Offline Peekay1982

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2011, 09:36:49 am »
This is an opinion piece published in the Joongang Daily, discussing the recent suicides of teenagers in Korea due to extreme bullying by fellow students. Or, if want, monsters in schools uniforms.

http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2946153

It's high time the MOE take serious action to deal with this problem, before it becomes a national headache. Otherwise, instead of kids killing themselves, there might be a "Columbine" incident here in the near future.

How? Serious question. Gun control is very tight here. I suppose a schoolkid could always run amok with a knife - I remember an anti-US nutter stabbing a native speaker in an elementary school a few years ago. Then of course there have been some incidents where bullied soldiers have turned their guns on people they were serving with.

Offline kyndo

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2011, 11:08:04 am »
This is an opinion piece published in the Joongang Daily, discussing the recent suicides of teenagers in Korea due to extreme bullying by fellow students. Or, if want, monsters in schools uniforms.

http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2946153

It's high time the MOE take serious action to deal with this problem, before it becomes a national headache. Otherwise, instead of kids killing themselves, there might be a "Columbine" incident here in the near future.

How? Serious question. Gun control is very tight here.

How? You don't need a gun to hurt a lot of people: a glass bottle, some kerosene, and a rag, and you can potentially kill an entire class full of students. Unfortunately, if a kid wants to hurt people, there will always be plenty of ways to do so.

Access to CCTV would be very nice, yeah, and so would giving teachers more alternative discipline measures such as expulsion/suspension etc. Some education about the seriousness of the problem for both students and teachers might also go a long way.

Offline Peekay1982

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2011, 11:36:48 am »
This is an opinion piece published in the Joongang Daily, discussing the recent suicides of teenagers in Korea due to extreme bullying by fellow students. Or, if want, monsters in schools uniforms.

http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2946153

It's high time the MOE take serious action to deal with this problem, before it becomes a national headache. Otherwise, instead of kids killing themselves, there might be a "Columbine" incident here in the near future.

How? Serious question. Gun control is very tight here.

How? You don't need a gun to hurt a lot of people: a glass bottle, some kerosene, and a rag, and you can potentially kill an entire class full of students.

That's why I mentioned knife attacks. When someone mentions "Columbine" the first thing I think of is gun control/lack thereof. Conversely in the last few years in China and Japan there have been quite a few cases of people (men) running wild in public with bladed weapons (I believe access to guns is very tightly controlled in Japan and China too).

Offline Yu_Bumsuk

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2011, 12:05:41 pm »
Well just after I'd written what I had above we had the most furious mother ever storm into school, apparently upset at how some other students had treated her daughter (who can be a real troublemaker and liar). I was one of two teachers on the classroom floor where the poop hit the fan and for the first time in 7 years physically blocked and restrained a parent - she had been grabbing another student by the hair and screaming at her. She then spent 90 - yes 90 - minutes screaming at people in the conference room and I still don't think she's left. It will be interesting to get the story behind all that.


Offline confusedsafferinkorea

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2011, 03:19:49 pm »
Well just after I'd written what I had above we had the most furious mother ever storm into school, apparently upset at how some other students had treated her daughter (who can be a real troublemaker and liar). I was one of two teachers on the classroom floor where the poop hit the fan and for the first time in 7 years physically blocked and restrained a parent - she had been grabbing another student by the hair and screaming at her. She then spent 90 - yes 90 - minutes screaming at people in the conference room and I still don't think she's left. It will be interesting to get the story behind all that.

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Offline kyndo

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2011, 04:08:13 pm »
When someone mentions "Columbine" the first thing I think of is gun control/lack thereof. Conversely in the last few years in China and Japan there have been quite a few cases of people (men) running wild in public with bladed weapons (I believe access to guns is very tightly controlled in Japan and China too).

I'm not sure about China, but it sure is in Japan and Taiwan both. Actually, in Japan, you need to have a psychiatric evaluation from a certified shrink before being allowed to legally own a katana or other long bladed weapons. Apparently, they had too many cases of nutcases watching one too many Samarai flicks and then going mental on their loved ones / coworkers / complete strangers.
I've also heard rumours that the same may have happened in Britain: making it illegal to wander about with blades over 13cm long without a license.

Makes sense really. Unless you are Duncan MacLeod from the clan MacLeod, why the hell would u need to be carrying it around for anyway? (Cue that awesome song by Queen)

Offline riswyk

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2011, 04:57:55 pm »
I sympathize with the victims of bullying, but I sometimes think that too often we expect the victims to suffer in silence.  I taught in American public schools, and if 2 kids fought, they both were in trouble.  I always thought that the student who instigated the fight should receive a harsher punishment, and wondered why a student defending him/herself would have to be punished.  I used to tell my American students, if someone bullies you, fight back.  If he knocks you down, get back up.  If you have to find a friend and hold hands while you stand up to the bully, do that. 
Teaching kids to be passive and silent will never cure bullying. Teaching them to tell teachers will not cure bullying.  The teacher cannot be in the bathroom, the hallway, the alley or street as the student walks home.
It's politically incorrect, and I'm not a violent person, but the cure for most bullies is a good a$$-whipping from their victims. 








Offline Peekay1982

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2011, 05:41:17 pm »
I sympathize with the victims of bullying, but I sometimes think that too often we expect the victims to suffer in silence.  I taught in American public schools, and if 2 kids fought, they both were in trouble.  I always thought that the student who instigated the fight should receive a harsher punishment, and wondered why a student defending him/herself would have to be punished.  I used to tell my American students, if someone bullies you, fight back.  If he knocks you down, get back up.  If you have to find a friend and hold hands while you stand up to the bully, do that. 
Teaching kids to be passive and silent will never cure bullying. Teaching them to tell teachers will not cure bullying.  The teacher cannot be in the bathroom, the hallway, the alley or street as the student walks home.
It's politically incorrect, and I'm not a violent person, but the cure for most bullies is a good a$$-whipping from their victims.

Real talk. The doctrine of non-violence doesn't really stand up - where would we be if (for example) people hadn't stood up to Hitler and Gim Il-seong? It's like, your chance of being assaulted in a certain place may be a certain percentage. Yet in reality the same people - people who give off a passive vibe - actually on average get assaulted through their lives a couple of times. I have one friend back home who has a very meek and timid demeanour and he's been beaten up randomly (not as part of a mugging) a few times. Makes me furious but it proves that there are bullies out there who relish preying on people they don't think will defend themselves.

Offline anichion

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2011, 08:28:12 pm »
If the MOE wants, they can certainly take a look at what the other industrialized countries have been doing to stop the problem.
http://www.stopbullying.gov/  this one is from the US.

In Korea, I assume the context behind bullying is not the same as it is in other countries (racial/gender/religious etc), therefore whatever decision they decide to come across is going to have to be geared for the Korean societal context.
Simply telling kids "no, that's wrong" is not enough. There needs to be consequences, explanations, and some form of a level playing field. Or they can just go the direct approach and say "Look, don't bully this kid or he might kill everyone in the room. Do you really wanna die? You want to be another statistic?" (I remember hearing that one a lot in middle school)


Offline woman-king

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2011, 08:37:33 pm »
I sympathize with the victims of bullying, but I sometimes think that too often we expect the victims to suffer in silence.  I taught in American public schools, and if 2 kids fought, they both were in trouble.  I always thought that the student who instigated the fight should receive a harsher punishment, and wondered why a student defending him/herself would have to be punished.  I used to tell my American students, if someone bullies you, fight back.  If he knocks you down, get back up.  If you have to find a friend and hold hands while you stand up to the bully, do that. 
Teaching kids to be passive and silent will never cure bullying. Teaching them to tell teachers will not cure bullying.  The teacher cannot be in the bathroom, the hallway, the alley or street as the student walks home.
It's politically incorrect, and I'm not a violent person, but the cure for most bullies is a good a$$-whipping from their victims.

Real talk. The doctrine of non-violence doesn't really stand up - where would we be if (for example) people hadn't stood up to Hitler and Gim Il-seong? It's like, your chance of being assaulted in a certain place may be a certain percentage. Yet in reality the same people - people who give off a passive vibe - actually on average get assaulted through their lives a couple of times. I have one friend back home who has a very meek and timid demeanour and he's been beaten up randomly (not as part of a mugging) a few times. Makes me furious but it proves that there are bullies out there who relish preying on people they don't think will defend themselves.

Yeah, this particular aspect of the "zero tolerance" idea has never stood well with me.  There's a difference between defending yourself and being a perpetrator.   

I also think Korea needs to address its suicide problem in general and how social pressures that are very ingrained here often play a part in them--and not just for students. 

As far as bullying here goes, I agree it needs to be taken more seriously but--like all discipline problems in Korean public schools--part of the problem comes from a lack of real support structure for teachers, at least in my experience.  American schools aren't perfect and of course bullying happens there despite cool new slogans like "zero tolerance," but I think it does make a huge difference when you have people on staff specifically to do the job of dealing with problematic or violent kids.  One reason teachers ignore fights and verbal taunts that would be addressed in the States (at least in the middle school where I worked prior to coming to SK) is simply because they don't have much of a support structure.

But, also, as we've all talked about on this site before, Korean culture has a bit of a different take on what you can and can't say to someone's face, and is still more tolerant of at least certain forms of violence in general--they still hit the kids at my school, and most fights are ignored unless someone is seriously injured.  It's interesting that this article says student-on-student violence/bullying is seen as a ritual/rite of passage for kids, since this seems to be overall attitude.  I've definitely had conversations with co-teachers who have expressed concern over students being bullied, though, so I don't want to assume this is something all Koreans want swept under the rug to protect the status quo. 

Personally, while I'm not a mission to radically change Korean culture, I tell students to respect each other in my class and call them out for insulting or hitting each other, even if it's not incredibly serious.

Offline Yu_Bumsuk

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2011, 08:44:23 am »
Well just after I'd written what I had above we had the most furious mother ever storm into school, apparently upset at how some other students had treated her daughter (who can be a real troublemaker and liar). I was one of two teachers on the classroom floor where the poop hit the fan and for the first time in 7 years physically blocked and restrained a parent - she had been grabbing another student by the hair and screaming at her. She then spent 90 - yes 90 - minutes screaming at people in the conference room and I still don't think she's left. It will be interesting to get the story behind all that.

Must be fun being married to her... ;D ;D ;D

I think that dad's not in the picture, and I can well understand why. Two other 20-something guys - I think the student's older brothers - arrived and the teachers seemed to have more success talking sense with them than their mum. The whole family was still at school at 3.30PM when I left, four and a half hours after the first incident with the mother. It was our last day of school and I'm sure the homeroom teachers involved really wish that school had ended a day earlier.

It's no wonder that particular student seems a bit screwed up.

Offline anichion

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2011, 12:16:15 pm »
When I was in high school, a fight broke out between two girls, one of whom had a very supportive family. By supportive, I mean nuts.

Later that day, several family members showed up at school and tried to fight the other girl in the hallway. In that fight the vice principal lost an eye.

Parents can be helpful but they can also be part of the problem.

Online SpaceRook

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2011, 09:50:37 am »
How about something useful like teaches being able to access the CCTV cameras around their classrooms from their school computers, or locking the doors to the roofs, or designating a teacher to patrol the school during staff meetings?

How about the teachers stop hiding in the teacher's room between periods and actually patrol the halls and classrooms?  When I was a middle school/ high school student, the teachers did not have a separate office room.  The home room was their office, and you can be damn sure the teachers didn't let kids run around like animals. 

I've suggested this before, but people always tell me I'm not being happy funtime teacher and "kids need to be kids". 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 09:54:30 am by SpaceRook »

Offline Peekay1982

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2011, 08:20:16 am »
How about something useful like teaches being able to access the CCTV cameras around their classrooms from their school computers, or locking the doors to the roofs, or designating a teacher to patrol the school during staff meetings?

How about the teachers stop hiding in the teacher's room between periods and actually patrol the halls and classrooms?  When I was a middle school/ high school student, the teachers did not have a separate office room.  The home room was their office, and you can be damn sure the teachers didn't let kids run around like animals. 

I've suggested this before, but people always tell me I'm not being happy funtime teacher and "kids need to be kids".

In England the staff room is generally a fortress-like compound which is strictly off-limits to kids. If you knock on the door you better have a good reason for disturbing them during breaktime - imminent bomb explosion/rapidly approaching tidal wave etc. Sometimes I find it annoying how the kids here are free to wander in and out of the staff room and harass teachers.

On the other hand I think in England there's generally a few teachers assigned to roam the hallways during breaks and deal with firefights/drug deals/lynchings etc. I can't really remember.

Korea needs classic UK-style primary school dinner ladies to keep order in the playground. They were always kids' mums so you never really got cheeky with them to avoid recriminations. Did anyone else have to freeze in place when the bell rang for the end of break at primary school? Seems quite odd now I think about it but I accepted it as completely normal at the time. There were always a few jokers who froze on one leg or hanging off a tree branch or something.

Offline Yu_Bumsuk

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2011, 12:21:19 pm »
I sympathize with the victims of bullying, but I sometimes think that too often we expect the victims to suffer in silence.  I taught in American public schools, and if 2 kids fought, they both were in trouble.  I always thought that the student who instigated the fight should receive a harsher punishment, and wondered why a student defending him/herself would have to be punished.  I used to tell my American students, if someone bullies you, fight back.  If he knocks you down, get back up.  If you have to find a friend and hold hands while you stand up to the bully, do that. 
Teaching kids to be passive and silent will never cure bullying. Teaching them to tell teachers will not cure bullying.  The teacher cannot be in the bathroom, the hallway, the alley or street as the student walks home.
It's politically incorrect, and I'm not a violent person, but the cure for most bullies is a good a$$-whipping from their victims.

I'm a big fan of the logic behind this, but in real life it often doesn't pan out the way you describe.

Many bullies have a tough home life that involves physical bullying. These kids are already used to defending themselves against fully grown adults, and have been doing it for a long time. When someone who isn't used to physical violence tries to inflict it, they end up sucking at it. Thus making the situation worse. For example, giving the bully a good excuse to beat the crap out of the kid who's being bullied.

Of course, a kid who is being bullied must defend himself, but it isn't likely to pan out as an ass-whoopn'.

I have an example in my own life where it did turn out the way you described. A guy I used to hang out with in high school was in the habit of punching people in the arm extremely hard. He had a real skill for hitting the bone and inflicting a good amount of pain. It was more annoying than anything, but another, really quiet guy who hung with us told him flatly "Phil, if you do that again I'm going to level you".  A week or so later Phil punched someone (I can't remember if it was the quiet kid or someone else), and the quiet kid was good to his word. He struck him clean on the chin with a straight left and sent him reeling. Phil skulked off and it was never mentioned again.

Of course there are some differences here. Everyone involved were mates. None of us were utter psychopaths like some bullies are. We all had stable home lives.

My students love punching each other's arms as hard as possible ... which thankfully isn't quite as hard as I can squeeze them.

Offline waldron1983

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2012, 05:57:53 pm »
school bullying needs no place in schools. but it needs taught at an early age, along with being tolerant of others. as far as any major attacks happening here, im not sure about that. the kids (some) are tightly wound and under mucho stress...but. and for example, my school we have a counselor (emotional issues, not career) who is already in trouble for not doing his job. may be fired. so i dont think they take mental health, stress, depression serious here.

also, the gun access issue. i think it depends where you are from. As an American, I think access to non assault weapons is fine (rifles, handhuns) as long as the person isnt a violent offender or insane. most gun owners are responsible people. CRIMINALS are not.

I would venture to think those London riots may have ended a LOT faster if shop owners could have popped a cap in a few kneecaps of folks destroying stores.

Offline waldron1983

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Re: Opinion piece- End scourge of school bullying
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2012, 09:33:34 pm »
Both of my schools have "counselors". They are both old jokers, who I understand used to be teachers but can't cut it anymore.

One of them greets the kids in the morning and aggravates any situation he pokes his nose into, as well as imposing his will on people (you know the type, ajeoshi who has no presence or charisma but expects you to find him fascinating and hilarious simply because he is the oldest).

The other one sits in the "male resting room" all day and watches TV. He is cool. He's big for an old Korean dude and doesn't bother me with his stupid ajeoshi crap. Nice fella.

Neither of them get any respect from the students. The first one for good reason, the second one for various reasons I suppose. It would surprise me if either had any training in actual counseling.


same here. my CT is at training now to be a counselor. frankly hes tired of teaching, and he tells me "i will only need to teach 6 classes a week" once hes a counselor. i guess it makes sense. but i agree...these guys dont undergo any real training as opposed to back home. no intervention techniques, no this and that. one time he infoemdd me about a possible physical abuse case by a student's drunken  father.

he would not pursue it, nor would the counselor. that would not be tolerated in most first world countries. now, there is a difference between taking a belt to a smart ass kid and then beating him b/c you down a case of soju. its incredible