Well in an outgroup setting they are still in a group called 'Koreans' so an adjoishi then adjuma still are top dogs, but what I said before stands true on the whole.
I must admit I am struggling with this whole concept. I can understand this whole family thing, but if you are in a group called 'Koreans', why do people barge to the front of lines, push and shove each other on escalators, stairs etc? Afterall they are doing it to fellow 'Koreans' not to a bunch of foreigners.
One of the things that I am really strict on in my classroom at camp times is at snack time. Usually when they are told to come and get a snack, then the law of the jungle applies to them. I make them line up or call them up row by row or let the girls come first (for which I get insulted) or else someone is likely to get seriously hurt in the ensuing brawl to grab the biggest piece of pizza or the cup that has 1 ml more juice than the next one. This just beats the hell out of me.
I think the underlying point to remember to all of this is that standards of acceptability are context-specific and defined locally. For example, the Korean definition of rudeness might fly in the face of what is rude in our native countries.
However, there are no hard and fast rules to cultral norms. There are based on observations in the social world. Two things to consider are: How deep and pervasive are cultural roots when it comes to explaining cultural phenomena, and to what extent does the human condition (which we all have - regardless of mother culture) play a role in all of this?
You sight the example of your kids acting like they are in the jungle when getting food. Can't you say this about kids' behaviour in other parts of the world? I often see shocking acts of selfishness in the UK - but then again I also see great deeds of kindness to complete strangers. The point is, what is expected from an individual based on their country's cultural norms may not be what is actually observed.
Also, to what extend has the industrialisation and ongoing social revolution in Korea have upon the younger generations of today? Are they losing aspects of their Confucian cultural roots in exchange for more individualistic, Westernistic ones? Is there is a confusing mix of these things going on? Maybe, the rude behaviour encountered on the subway, buses etc, is just down to living in an over-populated urban environment where the same types of behaviour can be observed all over the world.
I have to disagree. I believe there are two kinds of 'rudeness', the first being what you describe as culturally specific. That's the handing things with two hands to an elder or not burping at the table sort of stuff. Those things are different in every society and when you really think about them, it doesn't make too much sense when removed from those specific situations.
The second kind of rudeness is impeding or harming others with your actions. This is where shoving your way onto to the subway, smashing into people on the street and skipping the line come in. This is rude because it impedes (and in some cases hurts) others and if everyone acted this way society would be chaos. There are general rules we implicitly accept in order to live in a society. People say Korea is a communal society, but honestly I've never seen such selfish public behaviour before and I've been to 30+ countries and lived in a few of them. This type of rude behaviour exists everywhere, but it is called out and society in general has a dim view of it. That doesn't seem to be the case in Korea. Yes, kids all over the world push and shove to be first in line for snack time, but in most other countries the teacher would scold them and make them line up in an orderly fashion. Here, the kids that push the hardest to be first are rewarded by getting what they want, thereby having their selfish and rude behaviour reinforced. How can I expect an 8 year old to know how to respect his classmates when he sees his mom shove her way onto a subway everyday, or his dad pushing to the front of every line?
And that's what it comes down to, respect. Our culture is based on equality and fairness, so we are taught to respect others. In Korea, unless you've been introduced to someone, they are a 'non-person'. Almost everyday I have Koreans walk into me like I wasn't even there. You can call me culturally biased or a complainer or whatever you want, but to me that is a very screwed up point of view. Like everything in Korea, it is changing, though. I like it here, from this rant it may not seem that way. But like every other country on Earth Korea has it's problems and this, to me, is one of them.
You concede that cultural norms are context specific, yet you don't apply this logic when dicussing being knocked and pushed in front of in queues etc., in Korea - as it's not rude here. The equality and fairness you talk of is related to your culture. Those concepts are defined in different terms all over the world. They are not universal. Hence, everything culture-related is locally defined and should be contemplated by those locally defined standards, not by our motherland standards.
Yes, if you read my post you see that I conceded that many things are culturally specific but then I said other things are not. I'm not a cultural relativist, I believe some behaviour is universally bad. I explained my position on it in the post, so you can disagree with those points but you can't say I didn't make sense or was being hypocritical. Furthermore, if you ask almost any Korean they will tell you pushing onto the subways or budding in line is rude, yet they will exhibit this behaviour when they go out. My understanding is this is mostly due to the 'non-person' of Confucian society, which is a culturally unique thing. And I have stated that I think Confucism (like many things in many societies including my own) is complete BS. As I said, I'm not a relativist. I find it odd that relativists claim to be more intelligent when in fact they're letting the ridiculous rules randomly drawn up by those in power over centuries dictate what they believe is right and wrong. I, and other non-relativists, look at how behaviour affects others and go from there. For example, in Western culutre (I use that term loosely) the opinons of men is given more weigh than that of women. That is BS, and our society would be better if we took the best ideas from everyone. None of us can ever be separated completely from our society, but we can strive to isolate injustice and stupidity where we see it.
And for the popcorn eaters, it is sort of funny. I've had this discussion many, many......many times over the years here and elsewhere. But we as travellers and expats are in a unique position to talk about these topics. It's pretty lame to think the last minute behaviour is against
YOU somehow, but it's interesting to talk about if you're here for a while. It used to bother me, but this is actually one of those things that's culturally specific and you have to get used to it living here. Koreans think we're pretty anallll about time and deadlines, so it goes both ways.
