Koreans worry about possible immigrant riots

[Peekay1982]

Isn't there some sort of ethnic/cultural tipping point proportion above which people (generally) start to feel uncomfortable and hostile? As in, when there's one different looking family in your neighbourhood most people don't have a problem. But once 40% of families in your neighbourhood don't look "like" you and your family people start to feel under threat

I feel like this in England.  It wouldn't bother me so much if they identified as English and wanted to interact, but they seem (muslims) to hate our couhntry, culture and do not want their kids interacting with others, so it feels to me like a bunch of aliens are taking over our cities and country.

It's sad but true. The majority of Muslims in the UK just don't want anything to do with anyone who isn't Muslim. I've mentioned here before a bloke I know whose parents are from Pakistan; his mum has lived in Manchester since the 1970s and she doesn't speak a word of English. I've known him for over 10 years and I've never been inside his house. His non-Muslim friends have to wait outside for him while his Muslim friends are allowed in the house. The problem is that so much of contemporary western culture - drinking alcohol, sex outside marriage, sexual equality - is utterly incompatible with Islamic beliefs. I used to live in the Orthodox Jewish part of Manchester and they too actively seek to isolate themselves from mainstream British society.

Equally there are plenty of white British people who will tell you they hate all Muslims.

[cwrintmore]

Here's a thought. If foreigners aren't welcome why don't we ALL pack our bags, leave and let the Korean nation get on with it as self-sufficiently as possible. I'm sure the economy would continue to remain as strong as ever and the exceptional fluency in English language which they have acquired will continue to flourish.

[JahRhythm]

Here's a thought. If foreigners aren't welcome why don't we ALL pack our bags, leave and let the Korean nation get on with it as self-sufficiently as possible. I'm sure the economy would continue to remain as strong as ever and the exceptional fluency in English language which they have acquired will continue to flourish.

Because "We" don't share any sense of solidarity with South Asian laborers.
If you do, feel free to make your protest. Organize a mass exodus.

[Keuka]

My neighbors, and the other couple of thousand people, where I live do not seem worried about me at all. 

[hilarity ensues]

I'm more worried about Koreans rioting because of immigrants.

Seriously, let's imagine they shut down all of the NET programs, all hagwons, and fired all immigrants from their places of work. Do they honestly think that all of that money will be given back to the Korean people?

[hilarity ensues]

I feel like this in England.  It wouldn't bother me so much if they identified as English and wanted to interact, but they seem (muslims) to hate our couhntry, culture and do not want their kids interacting with others, so it feels to me like a bunch of aliens are taking over our cities and country.

No offense, but based on what I've read you write on this site, your description of Muslims in England actually perfectly describes you in Korea… except for the kids. Do you bother yourself as well?

[DWAEDGIMORIGUKBAP]

I feel like this in England.  It wouldn't bother me so much if they identified as English and wanted to interact, but they seem (muslims) to hate our couhntry, culture and do not want their kids interacting with others, so it feels to me like a bunch of aliens are taking over our cities and country.

No offense, but based on what I've read you write on this site, your description of Muslims in England actually perfectly describes you in Korea… except for the kids. Do you bother yourself as well?

Really, care to back up your wrong assertions with quotes?

Or shall we just go back and forth pouring unfounded insults on each other like children?

Perhaps you've missed the posts recently where I explained how koreans are not more rude in public than foriegners and the cultural reasons behind it and the thread on Koreans telling teachers info at the last minute where I defended Korean behaviour and again gave alterantive explainations that it is not because they are control freaks?

Or are you just lazy?

Ball is in your court to show the evidence of your assetions.  I slag off the esl industry plenty but never koreans or their culture.

[hilarity ensues]

I'm not going to go digging through your post history just for some stupid argument that has already basically derailed the thread… it's more like I'm having a hard time believing that anyone who has had an immigrant experience would be so eager to start bashing immigrants in your home country. If you meant it as one of those 'oh I understand how Koreans must feel' sort of things then that might be okay, but you just seemed to be taking the opportunity to bash Muslims in England… without even relating it back to the original thread topic. 

But whatever… yeah, I suppose that the moral of the story is that dealing with immigrants is tough even for people from more 'open' countries… but still, they're talking about 2.2 percent of the entire population of Korea, whose salaries when averaged together are probably about the same or less than middle class wages, as if it's some kind of threat?

Maybe they should go in front of the blue house and hold up signs saying 'We're the 97.8%!!'… and demand that the government take that microscopic amount of the nation's wealth and give it back to the people-- maybe everyone can get themselves a new stapler or possibly a hat. 

[DWAEDGIMORIGUKBAP]

If you think your attempted slip and roll is going unmissed there, you're wrong. 

YOU derailed the thread by trolly unsubstantiated insults towards me and YOU started the argument.

Back up your bs allegations or just delete them like somebody with an ounce of class would do.

Child.

[sejongthefabulous]

I don't think it's a problem to acknowledge that Koreans have issues and concerns over a growing foreign population, even if some of those "concerns" are ignorance and prejudice. What I do think is a problem is that the implied solution from that article is to reduce the number of foreigners NOT change Koreans' attitudes....

They need to realize that the foreign population is becoming a necessary part of the economy and that it's here to stay. If they're worried about not getting along because of ethnic differences then they should have more programs to promote cultural tolerance in Koreans and cultural assimilation in foreigners. I know, "assimilation" is almost a dirty word if you're from the States at least. However, it's a very important part of moving to a new country and can be done with moderation and voluntarily. Both sides need to bend to each other if they're going to work things out-especially in a country like Korea.

This is precisely why many Koreans are worried, they know immigration is required in their low-birth rate aging society. Immigration is a double-edged sword no matter how liberal your values may be. Short term immigrants aren't a concern, it's citizens who don't have a strong (South) Korean heritage. If non-citizens riot, they will be charged or deported without mercy.
The Korean government does make an effort to promote multiculturalism. The students at my school were forced to watch a video about it. The video wasn't spreading fear and panic, it was talking about how it would make Korea a better and more respectful country. Korea probably has at least a generation to go before it becomes a problem anyway, so it is good to see they are tackling it with the children. My concern is many children go home to their grandparents who are cited in the survey as the least tolerant group. It's also an alien concept to them as the majority have never met a non-ethnic Korean citizen.
The Korean government also promotes assimilation through their immigration policies. Getting anything beyond a 2 year visa is difficult without Korean family or Korean language skills. Korean Immigration Integration Program is just one example of a cultural assimilation program.
My point is the government is already working from both angles to tackle the issues. I hope surveys like this one help reinforce the idea that more should be done to prevent future problems. Having immigrant quotas is certainly a good idea, nearly every country has them these days.

[woman-king]

Isn't there some sort of ethnic/cultural tipping point proportion above which people (generally) start to feel uncomfortable and hostile? As in, when there's one different looking family in your neighbourhood most people don't have a problem. But once 40% of families in your neighbourhood don't look "like" you and your family people start to feel under threat

I feel like this in England.  It wouldn't bother me so much if they identified as English and wanted to interact, but they seem (muslims) to hate our couhntry, culture and do not want their kids interacting with others, so it feels to me like a bunch of aliens are taking over our cities and country.

It's sad but true. The majority of Muslims in the UK just don't want anything to do with anyone who isn't Muslim. I've mentioned here before a bloke I know whose parents are from Pakistan; his mum has lived in Manchester since the 1970s and she doesn't speak a word of English. I've known him for over 10 years and I've never been inside his house. His non-Muslim friends have to wait outside for him while his Muslim friends are allowed in the house. The problem is that so much of contemporary western culture - drinking alcohol, sex outside marriage, sexual equality - is utterly incompatible with Islamic beliefs. I used to live in the Orthodox Jewish part of Manchester and they too actively seek to isolate themselves from mainstream British society.

Equally there are plenty of white British people who will tell you they hate all Muslims.

Right, the process of getting widely divergent people to live happily ever after together is easier said than done.  So I'm saying, in a way, that I feel like Koreans are at least being up-front with themselves and their immigrant population about potential issues down the road.  They're not making lofty claims to tolerance and easy acceptance into Korean culture to foreigners and on some level I can respect the honesty, though I get why many Westerners find it xenophobic and off-putting.  I understand--as best I can, from my British friends--that governments in Europe basically opened borders to immigrants from very very different cultures without adequately thinking through potential ramifications of self-imposed "ghettoisation" on these populations (often done for religious reasons, as you point out).  The U.S. has a somewhat similar issue with mass illegal immigration from Mexico, but it seems like there are even more issues with the conservative Muslim groups in Europe, and in many ways European countries are more like South Korea than the U.S. or Canada or Australia.  Smaller in land-mass, with a long history of ethnic and often religious homogenity to which national identity is strongly tied.  I don't think the U.S. or Canada do a perfect job of pulling off "multiculturalism," whatever you take that to mean, but I think we have a few advantages in t that our sense of self is essentially that of a "nation of immigrants."  Not so for indigenous British folk, or for Koreans or the Japanese or much of the "old world," really--and to be fair, there is a difference that I as an American am trying to understand.  I want to look at this from an alternative perspective, instead of charging into this flinging around accusations of Korean xenophobia.  I'm sort of feeling that it's not really fair to hold a country like Korea to the same standards as Canada, the U.S. or Australia on immigration and multicultural assimilation (again, not that they do it perfectly either).

Like you said though, a shrinking native population and the need for labor is going to make immigration necessary to some extent here in Korea and arguably in Europe too (and well, all Western countries except the U.S. have a negative birth rate right now).

[Yu_Bumsuk]

If non-citizens riot, they will be charged or deported without mercy.

Not if they're Chinese exchange students staging a counter-free-Tibet riot against peaceful Korean protesters, apparently.

[sejongthefabulous]

If non-citizens riot, they will be charged or deported without mercy.

Not if they're Chinese exchange students staging a counter-free-Tibet riot against peaceful Korean protesters, apparently.

Olympic torch riots too.

Koreans are afraid of dealing with the Chinese. There are no wide scale protests over the recent fishing incidents. I'm wondering if the police just won't allow it to happen or if the people have learned protesting China is risky.

[DWAEDGIMORIGUKBAP]

There was definately protest about the fishing incidents.

[madison79]

I'm more worried about Koreans rioting because of immigrants.

Seriously, let's imagine they shut down all of the NET programs, all hagwons, and fired all immigrants from their places of work. Do they honestly think that all of that money will be given back to the Korean people?

Yes, it's far easier to blame others for your problems.  We are the others in this case.

[Frozencat99]

Isn't there some sort of ethnic/cultural tipping point proportion above which people (generally) start to feel uncomfortable and hostile? As in, when there's one different looking family in your neighbourhood most people don't have a problem. But once 40% of families in your neighbourhood don't look "like" you and your family people start to feel under threat

I feel like this in England.  It wouldn't bother me so much if they identified as English and wanted to interact, but they seem (muslims) to hate our couhntry, culture and do not want their kids interacting with others, so it feels to me like a bunch of aliens are taking over our cities and country.

It's sad but true. The majority of Muslims in the UK just don't want anything to do with anyone who isn't Muslim. I've mentioned here before a bloke I know whose parents are from Pakistan; his mum has lived in Manchester since the 1970s and she doesn't speak a word of English. I've known him for over 10 years and I've never been inside his house. His non-Muslim friends have to wait outside for him while his Muslim friends are allowed in the house. The problem is that so much of contemporary western culture - drinking alcohol, sex outside marriage, sexual equality - is utterly incompatible with Islamic beliefs. I used to live in the Orthodox Jewish part of Manchester and they too actively seek to isolate themselves from mainstream British society.

Equally there are plenty of white British people who will tell you they hate all Muslims.

Right, the process of getting widely divergent people to live happily ever after together is easier said than done.  So I'm saying, in a way, that I feel like Koreans are at least being up-front with themselves and their immigrant population about potential issues down the road.  They're not making lofty claims to tolerance and easy acceptance into Korean culture to foreigners and on some level I can respect the honesty, though I get why many Westerners find it xenophobic and off-putting.  I understand--as best I can, from my British friends--that governments in Europe basically opened borders to immigrants from very very different cultures without adequately thinking through potential ramifications of self-imposed "ghettoisation" on these populations (often done for religious reasons, as you point out).  The U.S. has a somewhat similar issue with mass illegal immigration from Mexico, but it seems like there are even more issues with the conservative Muslim groups in Europe, and in many ways European countries are more like South Korea than the U.S. or Canada or Australia.  Smaller in land-mass, with a long history of ethnic and often religious homogenity to which national identity is strongly tied.  I don't think the U.S. or Canada do a perfect job of pulling off "multiculturalism," whatever you take that to mean, but I think we have a few advantages in t that our sense of self is essentially that of a "nation of immigrants."  Not so for indigenous British folk, or for Koreans or the Japanese or much of the "old world," really--and to be fair, there is a difference that I as an American am trying to understand.  I want to look at this from an alternative perspective, instead of charging into this flinging around accusations of Korean xenophobia.  I'm sort of feeling that it's not really fair to hold a country like Korea to the same standards as Canada, the U.S. or Australia on immigration and multicultural assimilation (again, not that they do it perfectly either).

Like you said though, a shrinking native population and the need for labor is going to make immigration necessary to some extent here in Korea and arguably in Europe too (and well, all Western countries except the U.S. have a negative birth rate right now).

Yeah, don't for a second believe the "we're not a melting pot, we're a cultural mosaic" propaganda that Canadians put out. Tolerance might be more present than in other comparable societies but racial, religious, and the other main differences are still there (as are the typical splits of "x nationality-town".)

I dislike the general attitude that any immigrant populace can be categorized as unwilling to assimilate, though.

[Seoulian]

Isn't there some sort of ethnic/cultural tipping point proportion above which people (generally) start to feel uncomfortable and hostile? As in, when there's one different looking family in your neighbourhood most people don't have a problem. But once 40% of families in your neighbourhood don't look "like" you and your family people start to feel under threat

I feel like this in England.  It wouldn't bother me so much if they identified as English and wanted to interact, but they seem (muslims) to hate our couhntry, culture and do not want their kids interacting with others, so it feels to me like a bunch of aliens are taking over our cities and country.

It's sad but true. The majority of Muslims in the UK just don't want anything to do with anyone who isn't Muslim. I've mentioned here before a bloke I know whose parents are from Pakistan; his mum has lived in Manchester since the 1970s and she doesn't speak a word of English. I've known him for over 10 years and I've never been inside his house. His non-Muslim friends have to wait outside for him while his Muslim friends are allowed in the house. The problem is that so much of contemporary western culture - drinking alcohol, sex outside marriage, sexual equality - is utterly incompatible with Islamic beliefs. I used to live in the Orthodox Jewish part of Manchester and they too actively seek to isolate themselves from mainstream British society.

Equally there are plenty of white British people who will tell you they hate all Muslims.

Right, the process of getting widely divergent people to live happily ever after together is easier said than done.  So I'm saying, in a way, that I feel like Koreans are at least being up-front with themselves and their immigrant population about potential issues down the road.  They're not making lofty claims to tolerance and easy acceptance into Korean culture to foreigners and on some level I can respect the honesty, though I get why many Westerners find it xenophobic and off-putting.  I understand--as best I can, from my British friends--that governments in Europe basically opened borders to immigrants from very very different cultures without adequately thinking through potential ramifications of self-imposed "ghettoisation" on these populations (often done for religious reasons, as you point out).  The U.S. has a somewhat similar issue with mass illegal immigration from Mexico, but it seems like there are even more issues with the conservative Muslim groups in Europe, and in many ways European countries are more like South Korea than the U.S. or Canada or Australia.  Smaller in land-mass, with a long history of ethnic and often religious homogenity to which national identity is strongly tied.  I don't think the U.S. or Canada do a perfect job of pulling off "multiculturalism," whatever you take that to mean, but I think we have a few advantages in t that our sense of self is essentially that of a "nation of immigrants."  Not so for indigenous British folk, or for Koreans or the Japanese or much of the "old world," really--and to be fair, there is a difference that I as an American am trying to understand.  I want to look at this from an alternative perspective, instead of charging into this flinging around accusations of Korean xenophobia.  I'm sort of feeling that it's not really fair to hold a country like Korea to the same standards as Canada, the U.S. or Australia on immigration and multicultural assimilation (again, not that they do it perfectly either).

Like you said though, a shrinking native population and the need for labor is going to make immigration necessary to some extent here in Korea and arguably in Europe too (and well, all Western countries except the U.S. have a negative birth rate right now).

Yeah, don't for a second believe the "we're not a melting pot, we're a cultural mosaic" propaganda that Canadians put out. Tolerance might be more present than in other comparable societies but racial, religious, and the other main differences are still there (as are the typical splits of "x nationality-town".)

I dislike the general attitude that any immigrant populace can be categorized as unwilling to assimilate, though.

I don't think you understand the meaning behind a cultural mosaic. You are mixing it up with a 'melting pot'.  The purpose is that people can be different, hence there is differences. A "China town" is encouraged in a cultural mosaic. Do you mean discrimination is still existent? - because saying someone is "Chinese" is not discrimination. Obviously there is discrimination in Canada...

[Frozencat99]

Isn't there some sort of ethnic/cultural tipping point proportion above which people (generally) start to feel uncomfortable and hostile? As in, when there's one different looking family in your neighbourhood most people don't have a problem. But once 40% of families in your neighbourhood don't look "like" you and your family people start to feel under threat

I feel like this in England.  It wouldn't bother me so much if they identified as English and wanted to interact, but they seem (muslims) to hate our couhntry, culture and do not want their kids interacting with others, so it feels to me like a bunch of aliens are taking over our cities and country.

It's sad but true. The majority of Muslims in the UK just don't want anything to do with anyone who isn't Muslim. I've mentioned here before a bloke I know whose parents are from Pakistan; his mum has lived in Manchester since the 1970s and she doesn't speak a word of English. I've known him for over 10 years and I've never been inside his house. His non-Muslim friends have to wait outside for him while his Muslim friends are allowed in the house. The problem is that so much of contemporary western culture - drinking alcohol, sex outside marriage, sexual equality - is utterly incompatible with Islamic beliefs. I used to live in the Orthodox Jewish part of Manchester and they too actively seek to isolate themselves from mainstream British society.

Equally there are plenty of white British people who will tell you they hate all Muslims.

Right, the process of getting widely divergent people to live happily ever after together is easier said than done.  So I'm saying, in a way, that I feel like Koreans are at least being up-front with themselves and their immigrant population about potential issues down the road.  They're not making lofty claims to tolerance and easy acceptance into Korean culture to foreigners and on some level I can respect the honesty, though I get why many Westerners find it xenophobic and off-putting.  I understand--as best I can, from my British friends--that governments in Europe basically opened borders to immigrants from very very different cultures without adequately thinking through potential ramifications of self-imposed "ghettoisation" on these populations (often done for religious reasons, as you point out).  The U.S. has a somewhat similar issue with mass illegal immigration from Mexico, but it seems like there are even more issues with the conservative Muslim groups in Europe, and in many ways European countries are more like South Korea than the U.S. or Canada or Australia.  Smaller in land-mass, with a long history of ethnic and often religious homogenity to which national identity is strongly tied.  I don't think the U.S. or Canada do a perfect job of pulling off "multiculturalism," whatever you take that to mean, but I think we have a few advantages in t that our sense of self is essentially that of a "nation of immigrants."  Not so for indigenous British folk, or for Koreans or the Japanese or much of the "old world," really--and to be fair, there is a difference that I as an American am trying to understand.  I want to look at this from an alternative perspective, instead of charging into this flinging around accusations of Korean xenophobia.  I'm sort of feeling that it's not really fair to hold a country like Korea to the same standards as Canada, the U.S. or Australia on immigration and multicultural assimilation (again, not that they do it perfectly either).

Like you said though, a shrinking native population and the need for labor is going to make immigration necessary to some extent here in Korea and arguably in Europe too (and well, all Western countries except the U.S. have a negative birth rate right now).

Yeah, don't for a second believe the "we're not a melting pot, we're a cultural mosaic" propaganda that Canadians put out. Tolerance might be more present than in other comparable societies but racial, religious, and the other main differences are still there (as are the typical splits of "x nationality-town".)

I dislike the general attitude that any immigrant populace can be categorized as unwilling to assimilate, though.

I don't think you understand the meaning behind a cultural mosaic. You are mixing it up with a 'melting pot'.  The purpose is that people can be different, hence there is differences. A "China town" is encouraged in a cultural mosaic. Do you mean discrimination is still existent? - because saying someone is "Chinese" is not discrimination. Obviously there is discrimination in Canada...

I understand the meaning perfectly. Though, I grew up with it being referred to as the cultural quilt. A "China town" is encouraged in a mosaic where all of the similar small parts (suburbia, reserves, Little Italy, Korea town) are distinct and culturally representative, but are also united in one understandable whole. Like... each patch of a quilt is encouraged to be different, so long as it is a part of the whole.

The distinction is Canada is often targeted as a negative aspect, as it with immigrants in the US and Muslims in the UK.

[hilarity ensues]

I don't think you understand the meaning behind a cultural mosaic. You are mixing it up with a 'melting pot'.  The purpose is that people can be different, hence there is differences. A "China town" is encouraged in a cultural mosaic. Do you mean discrimination is still existent? - because saying someone is "Chinese" is not discrimination. Obviously there is discrimination in Canada...

Yeah really-- culture and traditions aside, I don't really think it's anyone's responsibility to 'assimilate' or 'fit in'… a nation isn't really much more than a lot of space under a bunch of laws when you get down to it. If there's opportunity there and you're supplying something that's in demand, then it's first come first serve-- it doesn't matter where you're from originally.

If there are enough of you and you want to build your own community, then that's fair enough… and if you're paying your taxes and you're a thriving community, then yeah, you probably do deserve your own schools and decent representation in government. As long as you're not willfully disrupting other communities, more power to you… hopefully a few generations later all of the communities will be working together peacefully.

If the Muslims in England were demanding that they bulldoze St Paul's Cathedral and raise a new mosque, then yeah, that's rather unreasonable, but if they're asking the government to build them Muslim schools that teach their own religion and their own language, and if they're paying enough taxes to justify that, then I think that's fair. Maybe they could bulldoze some slums and put something nice in there instead.

Nothing is more obnoxious than the whole 'this is our land, it belongs to us now you had better respect that, abandon your inferior ways and be more like us' attitude… it's like something that only the worst right-wing d-bags in the world believe-- and it's even worse when they're Americans or Canadians, considering how our countries came to exist...

…and I definitely don't think that Korea is special in that regard-- especially considering how many first generation Koreans 'go native' while living abroad… and we're talking about people who have committed their whole lives to a place, not just a bunch of tourists on E-2 visas or mail order brides from all kinds of backgrounds, who are wholly subservient and still nowhere near the level of immigrants that you see in Western countries.

There is something seriously wrong with your brain if you think that 2.2 percent of the entire population, itself a collection of basically isolated communities, is a threat to the country in any way. The fact that this is an issue at all is a big embarrassing testament to just how racist and paranoid Koreans can be.

[Frozencat99]

I do wish there was some more honesty with the Canadian national image of the cultural mosaic. To be honest, though, China towns and internal cultural places are still more encouraged than anything Aboriginal.

Unless we can monopolize its image on our currency, that is.

I am surprised that Koreans are concerned over such a minuscule percentage of the population, though its also good that someone noted it is a fear of the agrarian and minor industrial Asian immigrant more than it is a fear of the NET.