Emotions and feelings - Korea

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Some of you may have been following the thread about someone who is considering a  midnight run. I posted a reply on that thread but I think it is better not to hijack it and start a new one.  Here is basically what I said:

There has been some interesting reading here. It is quite clear that some have great jobs, schools, neighbours etc and find living here good and vice versa. Some pretty strong feelings and emotions have come to the fore too.

I am not in any way, condoning or condemning anyone here but, I am interested in the following.

Those who have taught in other parts of Asia (China, Japan, Taiwan etc), not the West or Aus/NZ, did you encounter this sort of thing happening there too, some blindingly happy and others hating the country with a passion?

Sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but when I saw such strong emotions coming to the fore on this thread, it started me thinking, is Korea the only country that awakens such strong emotions and opinions or is it any Asian country?

[kyndo]

     I really think it depends more on the person than on the country. I've worked in several countries both in and outside of Asia, and in my experience, a great deal of your work environment is just what you make of it.

   Sure, some jobs undeniably suck, while others are an easy ride, but I strongly believe that a person's outlook can strongly affect the extent of either the good or the bad.

I think that living in East Asia only intensifies this. All the new experiences, unfamiliar things, and different situations tend to draw out stronger reactions, both bliss and hate.
 And of course, because people only really post when they feel strongly about something, reading too many Waygook thread is only going to make people appear even more polarized about living here.

Yeah, my 2 bits. 

[Yu_Bumsuk]

Korea is very much a land of extremes. It's not politically correct in the western sense by any means, and people tend to be less reserved about expressing their feelings, which often include a lot of nationalism. It's not surprising that this can rub some westerners the wrong way. It's also a country that takes some time to get to know, and newbies are usually no better at judging Koreans' characters than Koreans are westerners. Then it has a very different work environment and ethic, and a private English education industry that every Korean recognises is screwed up but no one can do anything about. It also has a public education system that has very different goals and ways of reaching them from the west. And to top it all off the weather really sucks six months of the year. So, it's not surprising that some westerners come here to teach and find life and work very frustrating.

That said, in a country with so many conveniences, so many things to do, and so many interesting people, if you're getting paid 2.0m+ a month and can't enjoy life and find a teaching job that suits you, you're just not cut out for either teaching or expatriate life. I understand that some jobs suck incredibly - I had one - and can understand why some people desperately want to change theirs. But if you can't even entertain the possibility of enjoying life here you're either terribly myopic or just a square peg in a round hole.

[Mountain Crocodile]

I'll provide some advice that I follow myself and keep my time here fairly comfortable.

Buy your own housing - take the housing allowance and never get stressed over losing your job = being homeless.  In addition, as your housing goes up, you save more money when you sell it in the future (my home increased in value nearly 250M since I bought it) and the feeling of incorporated savings while you get paid to live where you live and watch your value go up is an awesome feeling.  You can also tell your employer to **** off and get a new job w/o the stress of moving.

Buy a car - keeps you warm in winter, dry in summer and avoids the stress of public transportation as well as those who sneeze and cough w/o covering their mouths.  Can be quiet and peaceful while you travel alone and overall is far cheaper than taxis.

Spend money to get comfortable - furnish your place with enough to relax and be happy.  Your home should be your stress free zone, so don't be stingy and get some stuff you need to enjoy your place for a year or two.  If you don't, you'll hate being at home and spend far more money entertaining yourself while you try to avoid your crappy housing rather than just enjoying it when you're off work.

Buy a proper TV - cheaper than alcohol over a year, and people will buy it when you leave.  A decent 42" TV is cheap and matched with Skylife can entertain you during those long rainy weeks and keep you sane.

Decent computer w/net connection - nuff said.

Washing machine - cheaper than laundry shops over the year.  You can get new ones on sale now and then for less than 400k for a large unit.  You'll have clean clothes all the time when it's super hot and you've been chaging clothes so much from sweating.   Also nice to have clean clothes when you wash daily.  In addition, you can sell it to another expat cheap quickly and get most of your money back.

Stop wasting your time in bars - same scene, never changes though peopel will come and go.  After awhile you'll soon realize it's a waste of time and existence as well as your money.  Hopefully you havne't spent all your savings by then.

LIVE here - meaning do what you'd normally do at home.  That may mean you spend some money, but you're happy doing what you love and life becomes a lot better.

Over time, you'll enjoy this place as it no longer represents the negative stress of home and work but more of what you enjoy doing.  That is a huge difference in how many people live here.

MC

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Thanks MC for the tips, unfortunately what you have done (and I am happy for you that you have the money to do those things) is out of the reach of many who come here, but your tips are useful.

What I am really after is peoples experiences/opinions as to whether it is just Korea that brings out such intense emotions or is it common in the Asian experience?

I am well aware that it varies greatly from person to person, I, for one, am a very adaptable person and got over the culture shock easily, but for some that is a huge mountain to climb and sadly many never reach the top.

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it very much.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Yu... do you think what you said applies only to Korea or is it true for other Asian countries?



Kyndo... so you would say it is pretty much the same experience anywhere in East Asia?

[Yu_Bumsuk]

Yu... do you think what you said applies only to Korea or is it true for other Asian countries?

I really can't say from personal experience. I've been to at least ten other Asian countries as a tourist but that's a very different kind of experience. If there's one difference I guess it's in the way Koreans express themselves and come across to westerners. I think very many of them just don't have any idea what does and doesn't impress someone from a western perspective, and what westerners do and don't like. And of course it works both ways and westerners come here just as clueless about what does and doesn't impress Koreans and what they do and don't like. It's kind of hard to explain.

In other Asian countries I've found that there's, oh how do you say, generally a more relaxed approach to westerners and things involving them just aren't such a big deal. I can't really explain it but I can understand why Korea could be more off-putting to certain types of westerners. I also don't think western newbies really get how much of a state of flux Korea's in and how fast it's changing, but also how in spite of that when you're dealing with people who grew up pre-1988 you're dealing with people who've come from a very different place you see today. But I can't say I have or ever will figure out "Korean culture" and I'm beginning to think that no Koreans fully can either.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Yes, Yu, agree with what you are saying. I have only travelled to the Philippines in this part of the world but have friends from Thailand, Taiwan and China and they are much more 'relaxed' towards foreigners. 

I suppose it isn't fair to compare the Philippines as it was an American colony but the people there are very open to foreigners and every time I go there (been there 10x) I feel like royalty and very relaxed.

[Paul]

From personal experience I can say that this divide definitely does exist in other East Asian countries (I've worked in Japan and have friends working in Taiwan who've done Korea too) but its no where near as extreme. Furthermore, most of the negativity in Japan I saw was about very specific issues: dodgy employers and missing health insurance are the two big ones. Racial profiling and police corruption ranks a close third for those who ride a bicycle to work. On the flip-side, negativity in Korea seems far more evenly spread between work and day to day living.

A large amount of that however could be incidental given Korea runs EPIK (where your benefits package is at least mostly guaranteed) and Japan's JET is basically shit-canned leaving only the less accountable private sector. Similarly, no giant private education companies seem to exist yet in Korea running the in-house unrecognised "insurance policy" scam. Why would you moan about someone being a moron on the subway when you're worried that should something happen to your health you're entirely out of luck? Proper struggles will quickly crush the petty ones.

An extremely marked difference I've noticed though is the way first time workers handle each country. I'm talking about those either fresh out of university or the parentally funded unemployed who've never worked even a part time job to fund uni/rent. These people interest me because they're the ones far less likely to even recognise any "big" problems unless they get hit by them. Yeah, laugh and all but I have met many a naive person who doesn't understand what tax and insurance mean. In these cases I see people almost entirely enamoured with Japan but bitterly negative over Korea.

But I can't say I have or ever will figure out "Korean culture" and I'm beginning to think that no Koreans fully can either.

The other day I saw a copy of the Korea Unmasked comic book... in Korean. Seemingly aimed at South Koreans as it uses some hanja. I think you may be right.

[madison79]

1 thing that about Koreans attitudes towards non Koreans is the distrust you feel or get sometimes.  I try to not to hate on them but being treated differently gets old. 
It's kind of funny cuz they really dislike japanese for treating them bad but then turn around and do it to others.  I do have to say that over 5 years it's getting better with more positive experiences. 

[DWAEDGIMORIGUKBAP]

I must say it is only the korean forums on eslcafe that generate so ,much negativity, and they have forums for the whole world....

Partly could be that more of us come here.  Also that we come here mostly for the money - NOT because we actually want to be in korea for any other reason than it pays higher than China or Japan.

[ch1can3]

From personal experience (2 years, China), China has some of the negativity but it's spread out far more and is much more centered on working conditions.  Generally, from my experience, overall quality of life in regards to openness to foreigners, access to facilities, food, entertainment, expat scene, create a far more positive experience than living in Korea.  Working in China, you get paid less or equal depending on how hard you look, but schools are generally a bit more fair and aren't out to make your life a living hell.  You also get a choice of where you work, rather than throwing your chances in with EPIK, who can put you in the middle of no where.  There are traces of Confucianism in the workplace, but it's much much less than Korea.  You can talk straight to most people, and if you don't like it you're free to go without the endless make-you-feel-bad bullshit. 

In short,

Expats in China are far happier than the ones in Korea.  Much less bitter, more focused on their jobs and careers and generally loving life.  From my experience, at least.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Thanks everyone for your input so far. Keep them rollin'

[Yu_Bumsuk]

An extremely marked difference I've noticed though is the way first time workers handle each country. I'm talking about those either fresh out of university or the parentally funded unemployed who've never worked even a part time job to fund uni/rent. These people interest me because they're the ones far less likely to even recognise any "big" problems unless they get hit by them.

Oh I know exactly the type, usually North American, almost incapable of sniffing out BS by universal, much less by Korean, standards.

[kyndo]

Kyndo... so you would say it is pretty much the same experience anywhere in East Asia?

Oh, no, I wouldn't say that -- I'm sorry if I gave that impression. Similar maybe, but not the same!

No matter where they are, people will react to new situations either by complaining about it or with interest. Korean workplace culture is a little more different (exotic) than some other places I've worked (Canada, Taiwan, Netherlands, Japan), which might explain the stronger reactions, both good and bad from fellow Waygookers.

I definitely agree with the other posters that the topics people comment on are not necessarily the same as in other countries. For example, in Japanese academies most of the NETs complained about the long work hours and communication issues, while here in Korea the focus seems to more on contract violations and how much the coworkers/boss suck.

I think that Dwaed brought up a pretty good point: it might be that there is more work related negativity in Korea because (most?) people come here for economic reasons, not because it was a place that they were specifically interested in. Maybe in a few years when Korea has become a little more foreigner friendly, the type of teachers that come here to work will shift from economic refugees (a term from another thread which I though was pretty cool) to something closer to cultural-tourists.

Hopefully this will happen soon, 'cause all this constant whining is a downer.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

Thanks Kyndo   

[sheikhnguyen]

I lived in Vietnam and the ex-pats there were far and away a happier bunch.
It seems to me that a large amount of the negativity here is caused by 2 things, the first is poor working conditions, and the second is that Korea is a rather insular country.
The poor working conditions are in my experience mostly found in the private sector, I've experienced some myself and I don't need to list them as we all know what I am talking about. These problems were addressed rather half heartidly by the government with the labour relations board, but the fact remains that criminality and abuses by Hagwon owners are not being punished enough so they continue unabated.
As for the insularity, it has in my experience bred a nationalistic streak in Koreans that is often manifested in scorn for outsiders and feelings of cultural superiority. This feeling of superiority gives rise to all sorts of behaviour that is actually unaceptable to other Koreans but is given a pass as it is targeted at forigners. The media here also fuels this behaviour by trumping up nonsense about us and rarely pointing out the abuses we suffer.
These things lead to people hating it here.
That said, I feel that the people who come here are often young, straight out of college types who are here to make money and are not perhaps true ex-pats. The people in Vietnam were mostly hardened ex-pat types who had left their home countries for good and were globe trotters. That meant they had a much higher tolerance for nonsense than a person who is simply here to make money before going home. This here for cash thing is also part of the reason people often hate their jobs, they didn't study to be teachers and are unequiped for the realities of it. I have noticed that people who trained as teachers or were teachers before are generally happier here.

[confusedsafferinkorea]

sheikhnguyen .... is life harder for expats in Vietnam? I mean in terms of benefits, standard of living, medical, transport, food etc.

[sheikhnguyen]

You get paid less usually less than 2,000$ a month. You get no other benefits, no housing, no medical, no flights. You have to pay taxes on a sliding scale which usually comes out at about 20% of your pay check. Transport wise everyones uses motorbikes which are pretty dangerous the roads and traffic there are a little mad. The food in Vietnam is excellent, hands down the best I have ever had. I like Korean food for the most part, I feel they over emphasis the red chilli a little too much but it is still good. There is plenty of nonsense there though. Corruption is a fact of life there and you get shaken down regularly. That said it is still great, the people are really nice, welcoming and decent for the most part. Obviously there is an element there that see forigners as a way to make a quick buck, but all in all they are lovely. They also don't have quite such a rigid social system there either. You are also dealing with being in a developing country as well.

[cinamon]

Every country has it's idiosyncrasy's.  In the countries I've lived in, there's been things that I both hated and loved about them.  Korea is no different to me.

I do find it amusing when westerners talk about how kind they are treated when they visit the Philippines or Thailand or some other poor Asian country.  Yes, they do because that's simply survival for them.   They don't actually like you for you, they want your money and business.  In Korea, they will not treat you like royalty just for being from a western country.  Although, in my experience, they've still been relatively polite to my face.