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Author Topic: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers  (Read 3865 times)

Offline peasgoodnonsuch

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2012, 11:37:16 AM »
All of this talk got me thinking about my beloved Myers-Briggs theory. Here's some food for controversial thought.

***DISCLAIMER*** I have not read everything I'm linking to nor am I condoning, promoting or condemning anything contained therein. I just find it may be relevant fuel for the discussion.

http://politicsandprosperity.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/intelligence-personality-politics-and-happiness/

A controversial blog post supporting the idea that NT combinations have higher IQs and that Right-wingers are actually more intelligent and happier than Left-wingers. Date: 2004

http://www.personalitypathways.com/article/emotional-intelligence.html Discussion on EQ's growing importance against IQ and if the MBTI definition of Thinking is really unrelated to the definition of Feeling

Shttp://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-021508-211201/unrestricted/IQP_JMW.pdf Study from WPI (Worcester Polytech Institute) examining literature regarding the relationship of Intelligence and Personality Type

http://research.similarminds.com/intelligence-test-performance-and-myers-briggs-type/28 Chart comparing MBTI types with results of a Visual Intelligence Test. Cursory glance gives no legit source for study.

*EDIT* My apologies for posting the same link twice rather than the link for the blog post I was supposed to put! It's fixed now.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 03:19:16 PM by peasgoodnonsuch »

Offline flasyb

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2012, 11:41:02 AM »
^^
True, I'm definitely talking about a broader definition of intelligence and Cohen put a lot of emphasis on education too.

I'm not sure why you think that intelligent people struggle to form relationships. People with a high IQ don't lack social intelligence as far as I'm aware. If anything, they more likely to be smart enough not to say stupid things that might lead to the being socially ostracised. I suppose there is an image of the intellectual loner but I seriously doubt that having a high IQ is such a social handicap as you suggest. I would have thought that a low IQ (or low intelligence) would leave a person less able to articulate themselves, how they feel and their wants/needs (making them less functional socially). The opposite would be true for people with a high IQ (or high intelligence) who at the same time are more able to see things from multiple perspectives and thus empathise.
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Offline Davox

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 11:53:01 AM »
^^
Nah, I remember reading Simon Baron Cohen's book, Zero Degrees of Empathy, and he reckons that research shows the more intelligent/educated you are, the more empathy you are likely to have. It's empathy that drives a lot of the left's notions of social security or welfare systems and a lack of empathy that drives the more conservative notion of fending for yourself or standing on your own two feet.

From the DM:
Quote
In adulthood, the children were asked whether they agreed with statements such as, 'I wouldn't mind working with people from other races,' and 'I wouldn't mind if a family of a different race moved next door.'
They were also asked whether they agreed with statements about typically right-wing and socially conservative politics such as, 'Give law breakers stiffer sentences,' and 'Schools should teach children to obey authority.'
The researchers also compared their results against a 1986 American study which included tests of cognitive ability and questions assessing prejudice against homosexuals.

So they were asked questions that are typically associated with right wing belief structures and these were compared with their answers to questions about race and suchlike. Simple really.
Well, let's find that study I talked about, then. ;)

Empathy isn't cleanly correlated to IQ. Cohen is tripping. Seriously. In fact, I would guess that once your IQ gets to 140 and above then you'd be considerably less empathic. High-IQ people (140+) tend to be socially-awkward, don't have a huge amount of relationships, things required for developing empathy, amigo.

Why did the "dumber" kids say "give law breakers stiffer sentences"? All I see is "dumber" kids repeating the "status quo" (which happens to be conservative) which they know to be safe. If "liberalism" was the "status quo" I'm sure the dumber kids would also repeat liberal lines. In fact, just take a look at some OWS ppl who clearly don't have an IQ above 105 and listen to the way they repeat things which are considered the "status quo" within their own organic/anarchist communities. I've spent time in liberal/anarchist communities and have seen plenty of folks blindly repeat "liberal status quo" stuff -- and usually they weren't that intelligent.

To say there is a direct correlation between IQ and Empathy is really pushing it. There are plenty of smart people who comment on this forum and just by the nature of their comments, it's clear to me that they are NOT empathic. Cohen's study is bunch of bunk, imho.

Like you, I'm not sure I buy any correlation, negative or positive, between IQ and empathy.  I know some smart people who have a lot of empathy and I know some fairly average (IQ-wise) people who have a lot of empathy.  I've seen the reverse (people with no empathy) for both IQ ranges, too.  Likewise, I'm not sure I see a connection between relationships and empathy.  I've known too many people who have functioning relationships (I wouldn't say happy, but that's just because of my definition of happy) where one or both people had very little empathy but happened to be compatible anyway.  I've also known a few people for whom their empathy was actually a fairly serious impediment to having a successful relationship.  I suspect this happens more than most of us think.

I would buy a connection between empathy and imagination, but I don't think we have a way to quantify or measure imagination, so that doesn't really help either.

Also, I'm not sure you're using status quo correctly in this context.  What you're talking about seems more like "echo chamber" or groupthink, which is a whole other phenomenon.   You were right about the status quo being conservative though.  It's part of the original definition of conservative.  That's because conservatism is, at it's core, "status quo".  It's in the name. What are we "conserving"?  The status quo.  It's the idea that things are fine, have pretty much always been fine for as long as the current society/system has existed and we shouldn't rock the boat.  Liberalism by contrast is at it's core all about changing or challenging the status quo.  It's the idea that things aren't "just fine", or that "just fine" isn't good enough, that we need to be constantly better than we were yesterday.  It's about trying to make the world a better place through change, usually via government because these are usually political movements. It thus, cannot really be the status quo, but is in fact about working towards the absence of a status quo.  It's constant change (hopefully good, but who knows because it's not as if we had time to test it out).

The fact that some countries (not naming names here) now believe that liberal and conservative instead mean a whole specific set of occasionally random yet unchangeable opinions on issues that affect their country today and didn't even exist say 150 years ago doesn't change the meaning or underlying core of each word/movement.

Also, if both these views seem at their core to be pretty retarded and a recipe for a terrible society should any one actually win, then congratulations, you now know more about politics than your average voter in a democracy.

Offline Jrong

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 11:57:37 AM »
^^
True, I'm definitely talking about a broader definition of intelligence and Cohen put a lot of emphasis on education too.
OK, well that changes everything, then :). IQ/Empathy clear/direct/linear correlation? No. Broader-intelligence/Empathy correlation? I guess so.


Quote
I'm not sure why you think that intelligent people struggle to form relationships. People with a high IQ don't lack social intelligence as far as I'm aware. If anything, they more likely to be smart enough not to say stupid things that might lead to the being socially ostracised. I suppose there is an image of the intellectual loner but I seriously doubt that having a high IQ is such a social handicap as you suggest. I would have thought that a low IQ (or low intelligence) would leave a person less able to articulate themselves, how they feel and their wants/needs (making them less functional socially). The opposite would be true for people with a high IQ (or high intelligence) who at the same time are more able to see things from multiple perspectives and thus empathise.
No, my friend.

Genius IQ's are associated with being somewhat of a loner for good reasons. You can't relate well to other people b/c they're on a different plain than you. For them, talking to another "human" often will probably feel  like us talking to a monkey. There's gotta be a study on how high IQ (140+) people struggle with having a large social network (or any social network). Seems like common sense. IQ is beneficial for social relationships up to a certain point but after genius level, it all goes down hill. Look it up, bro.

Low IQ folks can just flow with the group, go with the status quo. Join the baseball team. Allow the society you're surrounded by to do the thinking for you and just repeat the lines they give you. Being less-self aware they don't have to worry about how they're perceived as much. They can have a nice, broad base of relationships.
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Offline Jrong

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2012, 12:06:46 PM »

Like you, I'm not sure I buy any correlation, negative or positive, between IQ and empathy.  I know some smart people who have a lot of empathy and I know some fairly average (IQ-wise) people who have a lot of empathy.  I've seen the reverse (people with no empathy) for both IQ ranges, too.  Likewise, I'm not sure I see a connection between relationships and empathy.  I've known too many people who have functioning relationships (I wouldn't say happy, but that's just because of my definition of happy) where one or both people had very little empathy but happened to be compatible anyway.  I've also known a few people for whom their empathy was actually a fairly serious impediment to having a successful relationship.  I suspect this happens more than most of us think.

I would buy a connection between empathy and imagination, but I don't think we have a way to quantify or measure imagination, so that doesn't really help either.

When I say "relationships" I mean the amount, breadth, and diversity of relationships. In that case I do think there is a clear correlation between relationship/empathy. Someone who has many deep relationships with rich/poor, black/white, gay/straight will probably be much more empathic (b/c of their broader worldview) than someone who's just had deep relationships with people of the same race/socio-economic status/sexual orientation.

Quote
Also, I'm not sure you're using status quo correctly in this context.  What you're talking about seems more like "echo chamber" or groupthink, which is a whole other phenomenon.   You were right about the status quo being conservative though.  It's part of the original definition of conservative.  That's because conservatism is, at it's core, "status quo".  It's in the name. What are we "conserving"?  The status quo.  It's the idea that things are fine, have pretty much always been fine for as long as the current society/system has existed and we shouldn't rock the boat.  Liberalism by contrast is at it's core all about changing or challenging the status quo.  It's the idea that things aren't "just fine", or that "just fine" isn't good enough, that we need to be constantly better than we were yesterday.  It's about trying to make the world a better place through change, usually via government because these are usually political movements. It thus, cannot really be the status quo, but is in fact about working towards the absence of a status quo.  It's constant change (hopefully good, but who knows because it's not as if we had time to test it out).

The fact that some countries (not naming names here) now believe that liberal and conservative instead mean a whole specific set of occasionally random yet unchangeable opinions on issues that affect their country today and didn't even exist say 150 years ago doesn't change the meaning or underlying core of each word/movement.

Also, if both these views seem at their core to be pretty retarded and a recipe for a terrible society should any one actually win, then congratulations, you now know more about politics than your average voter in a democracy.
Thanks for clarifying. Groupthink, is a better word.
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Offline Jrong

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2012, 12:13:23 PM »
All of this talk got me thinking about my beloved Myers-Briggs theory. Here's some food for controversial thought.

***DISCLAIMER*** I have not read everything I'm linking to nor am I condoning, promoting or condemning anything contained therein. I just find it may be relevant fuel for the discussion.

http://www.personalitypathways.com/article/emotional-intelligence.html

A controversial blog post supporting the idea that NT combinations have higher IQs and that Right-wingers are actually more intelligent and happier than Left-wingers. Date: 2004

http://www.personalitypathways.com/article/emotional-intelligence.html Discussion on EQ's growing importance against IQ and if the MBTI definition of Thinking is really unrelated to the definition of Feeling

Shttp://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-021508-211201/unrestricted/IQP_JMW.pdf Study from WPI (Worcester Polytech Institute) examining literature regarding the relationship of Intelligence and Personality Type

http://research.similarminds.com/intelligence-test-performance-and-myers-briggs-type/28 Chart comparing MBTI types with results of a Visual Intelligence Test. Cursory glance gives no legit source for study.
I love the MBTI! You have some awesome links today. The pain of desk-warming is melting away.
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Offline Frozencat99

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2012, 12:56:35 PM »
I'm much more of a supported of varied IQs based on control variables, to be honest.

A 130 IQ, for example, would be excellent for a minority member who attended an inner-city school, while it would be terrible for an upper class Caucasian who went to private school for their entire lives.
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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2012, 01:05:23 PM »
A controversial blog post supporting the idea that NT combinations have higher IQs and that Right-wingers are actually more intelligent and happier than Left-wingers. Date: 2004

I'm having a really hard time finding where the articles you've posted say this, or even really understanding the point you're making... but maybe I'm just too lazy to read it and want some hardworking conservative taxpayer to do all the work of explaining it to me. 

 ;D

Offline Paul

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2012, 01:30:56 PM »
Yeah, if anyone does have the link to the paper, please pop it up. Mostly I just want a copy for shits and giggles, but also to scan it for rigour. The conclusions seem too funny to be true confident. I actually downloaded it in full last week so I know it's freely available but unfortunately flushed the PDF off when cleaning out the work computer.
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Offline TylerO

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2012, 02:26:51 PM »
No, my friend.

Genius IQ's are associated with being somewhat of a loner for good reasons. You can't relate well to other people b/c they're on a different plain than you. For them, talking to another "human" often will probably feel  like us talking to a monkey. There's gotta be a study on how high IQ (140+) people struggle with having a large social network (or any social network). Seems like common sense. IQ is beneficial for social relationships up to a certain point but after genius level, it all goes down hill. Look it up, bro.

Low IQ folks can just flow with the group, go with the status quo. Join the baseball team. Allow the society you're surrounded by to do the thinking for you and just repeat the lines they give you. Being less-self aware they don't have to worry about how they're perceived as much. They can have a nice, broad base of relationships.

Unless you actually quote a study linking IQ and relationships, your point is only speculation and "common sense."  Additionally, saying "Look it up, bro" is a bit presumptuous (and rude) when you either are too lazy to find such study or have tried, but were unsuccessful.  Also, the analogy of a high IQ person talking with a low IQ person of a human to a monkey is flawed.  Any conversation can seem that way when people are talking about non-mutual interests.

Saying that "Low IQ folks can just flow with the group..." is again not backed up by anything. 

Now I'm not certain if IQ has any real effect on forming relationships, the whole idea of creating a study based on the ability of people to relate seems pretty murky in general.  Like most on here, I also believe that IQ is not a good indicator of intelligence, and trying to measure intelligence in general is pretty futile.  And with that we get back to the main topic - trying to compare political spectra based on something as flexibly interpreted as intelligence is damn stupid.

Offline Frozencat99

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2012, 03:15:05 PM »
^^ I agree. I'm a criminal justice/history graduate and my boyfriend is in graduate school for experimental particle physics. I've seen his thesis and backed away slowly. If you don't share mutual interests or a base level of knowledge, conversations will automatically be difficult about those subjects. I'd say it'd be harder for a two people, a radical left-winger and a radical right-winger, with the same IQ to talk to each other than it would be for someone with a 140 to talk to a 100.
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Offline peasgoodnonsuch

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2012, 03:17:54 PM »
A controversial blog post supporting the idea that NT combinations have higher IQs and that Right-wingers are actually more intelligent and happier than Left-wingers. Date: 2004

I'm having a really hard time finding where the articles you've posted say this, or even really understanding the point you're making... but maybe I'm just too lazy to read it and want some hardworking conservative taxpayer to do all the work of explaining it to me. 

 ;D

Gosh! I'm so sorry! I posted the same link twice by accident. I guess I was too hasty. Here's the link to the blog article. http://politicsandprosperity.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/intelligence-personality-politics-and-happiness/

I will also edit my original to fix it.

As to my point? I don't have one. Didn't you read my disclaimer? I simply found them relevant to the topic and thought they might fuel the discussion. I also stated that I haven't read them myself and have no view, good or bad of what's contained therein.

Offline flasyb

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2012, 03:26:12 PM »
^^ I agree with that too.

I also thing Jrong needs to back up his speculations with something solid because at the moment it seems he's operating on "an appeal to common-sense" which doesn't really do it for me. I see no reason why someone with a high IQ would have less empathy that someone with a low IQ. They might end up with different interests and move in different circles but someone with an IQ of 140 would have no trouble talking to someone with an IQ of 100 so long as they stayed in the bounds of mutual interest but then again two people at the opposite end of the political and social spectrum with the same IQ (high or low) might have difficulty socialising civilly.
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Offline Spongeblob

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2012, 05:44:39 PM »
I think it is likely that a gifted IQer could formulate better emotional barriers to shield him/herself from the hardships of transitory attachments while still maintaining a superficial empathy that is individually tailored to each situation (empathetic detachment).  Then he could become a transitory figure drifting aimlessy through life taking teaching jobs overseas while pursuing his true dream of eating the perfect Chicken Wing (right or left).  :)

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2012, 02:07:07 AM »
I see no reason why someone with a high IQ would have less empathy that someone with a low IQ.

Yeah really.

'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' is logical enough for Mr. Spock to accept as an axiom, and it led to his saving the entire starship Enterprise at the cost of his own life.  I guess this isn't really empathy so much as philosophy but come on-- we all know he's a big softie inside and that's why he's such a great character... and one of peas' articles explained how flirting with these ideas does tend to produce a less rational, more empathic response.

Offline Jrong

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2012, 10:40:03 AM »
Hey flasyb,

High IQ is linked to social awkwardness. Here's a link with plenty of links to studies:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19174_5-unexpected-downsides-high-intelligence.html

"[High IQ] means you tend to be less agreeable and conscientious than the average Joe."
and
"Another unfortunate stereotype of smart people is that they're socially awkward nerds who are doomed to lives of celibacy until they get out of high school hell. Unfortunately, that one turns out to be totally true." Ha ha! Unless they move to Korea ;).

By the definition of social awkwardness above, it is linked to low EQ (which = low empathy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_quotient#Bar-On_model_of_emotional-social_intelligence_.28ESI.29

"Bar-On[1] defines emotional intelligence as being concerned with effectively understanding oneself and others, relating well to people, and adapting to and coping with the immediate surroundings ..."

Stereotypes exist for a reason. If you want me to drop the idea that highIQ peeps have lower empathy (in general) than others then show me some studies, otherwise it seems pretty intuitive. You have to convince me, man. I'm (economically)liberal-er than all of y'all but I can't deny that it still seems that HighIQ peeps have less empathy (in general) and therefore are more likely to be economically conservative. Prove me wrong, please. I'd like to not believe what I believe...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 10:41:57 AM by Jrong »
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Offline flasyb

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2012, 10:50:30 AM »
^^Thanks for posting these. I'm going to have to check them out and get back to you later though because I'm busy as hell this week (not a cop out!). High school camp with the new first graders.
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Offline Jrong

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2012, 11:03:08 AM »
Sure, no worries man! I'm enjoying this conversation...
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Offline woman-king

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2012, 02:16:04 PM »
If high IQ (like 140+, genius-level) is related to being less empathetic that might contradict the underlying findings of the original article that less intelligent people tend to be more racist, homophobic and generally judgmental and fearful and less compassionate towards those they deem "different."

I wonder if there would be a way to break down not just pure IQ but also factor in a sort of left-brain, right-brain divide.  I know this plays off some big stereotypes, but the few folks I've known who had very very high IQs and worked in the sciences or medical fields DID tend to be socially awkward (thinking of a couple relatives in particular) and didn't strike me as especially compassionate, though obviously I can't read their minds and it's wise to be careful when trying to assess others' level of virtue.  People who were "genius level" in a more right-brained area, like great writers or philosophers were often obsessed with issues and questions of virtue and justice and morality, and what really counts as right and wrong.

I'm sure there's great artists out there who wouldn't score high on IQ tests and artistic genius isn't exactly equivalent, in some sense, to having a sort of intelligence that gets a high IQ mark.  But I think there's people who would score very high on an IQ test whose skills and interests still fall within philosophy of various kinds and the arts--especially writing-related arts.  The stereotype of the high-IQ person who can't really relate well to others usually seems to be about someone with science-related skills.   

When I think about it, the writings I've read by people like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawking (and the little bit I've read from Einstein) all strike me as pretty compassionate and globally aware and not at all disconnected from humanity.  I know those are just famous examples, not necessarily representative of every scientist with their intelligence level--in fact perhaps they're famous because they're exceptional in this area--but something to think about. 

What might compound the whole issue is the high rate of Aspberger syndrome in people with very high IQ's.  Aspbergers--which is on the autism spectrum--is basically the lack of certain skills that allow humans to read one another's nonverbal cues, and they're often perceived and stereotyped as cold, callous people who can't love or feel emotions, which isn't accurate, though they DO have genuine difficulty relating to others the way most of us take for granted.

Offline TheWB18

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Re: Right-wingers are less intelligent than left-wingers
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2012, 09:34:05 AM »
I would guess the relationship is something like this, based on the two periods of testing:

- Smarter people tend to become more educated and/or enroll in more prestigious universities.
- Intellectuals, especially upper-cadre intellectuals at great universities, tend to be more liberal - not necessarily because they're smarter, but because any kind of intellectual production tends to lead towards the progressive end.  Or, in other words, the more theory you're studying/producing, the more progressive and/or liberal you'll be.

Just a guess.

 

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