Anyone been to North Korea?

[Travellin']

Just a quick reply, I answer other questions at another time (ie after the weekend)

Emailed EPIK, response was "well everyone technically goes to North Korea when they go to the DMZ. So going to North Korea on a tour isn't a problem".

[lasoro70]

^

Because I've already been to Thailand. How does that sound?

I'm keen to experience something completely different. So my motivations for going aside, does anyone actually know of someone who got a visa while living in SK?

I would've liked to have tried to go to NK during my stay in SK but never had the chance. The closest I got was Dorasan Station in the DMZ.

BTW, doesn't every English teacher go to Thailand? What's the fascination with Thailand? These days, I've heard that in some parts of Bangkok, every other person is a foreigner. It's like the Cabo of SE Asia.

[Travellin']

From further research, (blogs and so on), I haven't seen anyone write that they had problems with SK employers after going to NK.

My co teacher saw my emails to the NK tour company on my computer and didn't seemed that concerned. She just said she has no interest in NK.

Does anyone have friends that have actually had hassle coming back to SK afterwards or is it hearsay?

[lotte world]

It's hearsay.  Even Sejong the Fabulous couldn't provide any, you know, "evidence".  Your own research is probably more useful than asking here.

[ovid]

stop arguing with the man.  he is going because he just wants to.

i had a friend go about 6 years ago and he loved it.. for probably the same reason.  he was working in rok, went to china over summer break and traveled to north korea on his own dime.  nobody really cared when he got back.  he was pretty happy about visiting it.  i don't know what pleasure one can get from going to a country not being able to see most the people and the constant fear of being detained for any reason (including not having your tag on you). different strokes for different folks.  he told me that north korean official guide was very strict on what you can do and were very wary about cameras.. imo, don't risk it.

[dansk]

You don't see where a visit to North Korea could become a problem in your South Korean workplace? You don't see any possibility that someone may be offended?  You do realize that there's a war going on between the two countries with the DMZ, with every male serving in the military, and North Korea attacking ships and islands? This is all news to you?
Visiting North Korea just may upset your co-workers, your Principal, and the parents of the kids you teach. But you don't think that's possible or you don't think it matters? Then go ahead and play with fire. You think you know all of the answers about this. But the opinions of your co-workers, Principal, and parents of your students will matter when your contract is up and you want to stay at your school.

For someone who has no interest in going to North Korea, this matter really gets to you.

And no, I would expect no problems even if I did tell them.  As a matter of fact, I've told the majority of the teachers that I work with that I plan on visiting the North and that my friends went last year.  Their reactions have varied from apathetic to "That's possible??" to "Ooooh, I wish I could go...."

There's your answer, based on real-life, first-hand observation.  Not a single person has reacted negatively when I told them I wanted to go to Pyongyang.  I even met a professor at a Busan university who gave me the name of a colleague at a university in Pyongyang that I should get in touch with when I go.  Thanks to having dual German-Korean citizenship, he'd visited the North many times and thought it was an excellent idea that I was going.

The "war" between North and South Korea is a hell of a lot more complicated than the Cold War between the US and the USSR was, and your posts display a pretty limited understanding of how Koreans see the matter.  They're still very much a single people divided by politics.  They speak the same language, they share the same geography and history, and a lot of people still have living family members on the other side of the DMZ.  They don't hate each other.  What anger there is is usually directed exclusively at the governments of each country, not the people who live there.

I strongly recommend you go read some less biased accounts of modern Korean history, you might be surprised what you discover.

[Travellin']

stop arguing with the man.  he is going because he just wants to.

Hahahahha very good point! Except that I'm actually a girl. But still. Knocks the nail on the head.

Have you guys actually talked to S Koreans about North Koreans? Most of the stuff I hear about them from SK people are either jokes or complete indifference. Even when Kim Jung Il died, I expected my school to be completely buzzed with conversation. The most I heard was "Hey, Kim Jung Il died. Hmmmm yeah". And there used to be a resort in North Korea that South Koreans were allowed to go to for years (until one woman wondered off and got shot). So I think this entire "OMG they are at war people will hate you" is a bit of an over the top assumption.

I honestly heard a lot more bitching about the North and Southies from the Vietnamese. They were always telling me how "Those South Vietnamese are bad people" or "Those North people will rip you off" and yadda yadda yadda.

[lotte world]

You don't see where a visit to North Korea could become a problem in your South Korean workplace? You don't see any possibility that someone may be offended?  You do realize that there's a war going on between the two countries with the DMZ, with every male serving in the military, and North Korea attacking ships and islands? This is all news to you?
Visiting North Korea just may upset your co-workers, your Principal, and the parents of the kids you teach. But you don't think that's possible or you don't think it matters? Then go ahead and play with fire. You think you know all of the answers about this. But the opinions of your co-workers, Principal, and parents of your students will matter when your contract is up and you want to stay at your school.

Lots of 'coulds' and 'mays' in there.  If you don't want to go, you shouldn't go.  In terms of actual evidence, however, going there seems to be something that we can do (but South Koreans can't).

I would love to go there.  OP please post how you organised your trip, and how it was.

[miss_cho]

stop arguing with the man.  he is going because he just wants to.

Hahahahha very good point! Except that I'm actually a girl. But still. Knocks the nail on the head.

Have you guys actually talked to S Koreans about North Koreans? Most of the stuff I hear about them from SK people are either jokes or complete indifference. Even when Kim Jung Il died, I expected my school to be completely buzzed with conversation. The most I heard was "Hey, Kim Jung Il died. Hmmmm yeah". And there used to be a resort in North Korea that South Koreans were allowed to go to for years (until one woman wondered off and got shot). So I think this entire "OMG they are at war people will hate you" is a bit of an over the top assumption.

I honestly heard a lot more bitching about the North and Southies from the Vietnamese. They were always telling me how "Those South Vietnamese are bad people" or "Those North people will rip you off" and yadda yadda yadda.

I've discussed my interest with visiting North Korea with a few of my co-workers and most were completely indifferent. One woman told me that she was supposed to visit North Korea a few years back (I think the mountain that is on the border?) but something happened between the two countries and the border was closed, she seemed said she wasn't able to go. As Dansk said the negative feelings seem to be directed to the government not the people.

Travellin' I've contacted my friend's boyfriend and he said he'd be willing to answer my questions - if you send me some of yours I'll combine them with mine and send them to him so he's not overwhelmed with multiple e-mails filled with questions. He did say it was an incredible experience and he had absolutely no regrets going.

[Peekay1982]

Nothing like wanting donate 2000$ to a regime that commits numerous human rights abuses.....keep up the philanthropy.  PS there can be issues if South Korea finds out, specially if you work for a public school.

Real talk. Don't go. Do you really want to pay for fat blob Jeong-eun's cognac and PS3 games?

[Peekay1982]

For the people getting on their high horses and moralizing, you can kindly shut up and keep your opinions to yourselves.  If you don't want to go to North Korea, then don't go to North Korea.  I've given the ethical issues plenty of thought and sleep easily at night with my decision to go.  I do not agree with assessments that say visiting North Korea is making you an accessory to (insert state crime here).  By that logic, you shouldn't give your tourist dollars to the United States because they have the death penalty.

Unlike in your beloved DPRK, I'm actually free to give you my opinion here. I'm glad you've made peace with your decision; you now have a kooky experience you can wow other people with while you're backpacking. North Koreans continue to live in misery, oppressed by a brutal regime which is directly supported by the contributions of tourists such as yourself. 조선민주주의인민공화국 만새!

[Peekay1982]

We're all entitled to our opinions, but this thread was just asking for tourist information, not an ethical debate.

Tough. The ethical issues are too closely bound up in your decision to have a wacky holiday. Your tax argument is facile; aid to North Korea will happen whether you go on holiday there or not. There are also some structures in place aimed at ensuring the aid gets to the ordinary people it's intended for (undoubtedly these are circumvented and abused - but they're better than nothing). The tourism money goes straight into the back pocket of the savage elite ruling class.

[Andy84]

Real talk. Don't go. Do you really want to pay for fat blob Jeong-eun's cognac?

I think it was Jeong-Il who had the taste for that stuff. Instead of ruining this thread, why not email Hennesy's, who sold him £700,000's worth PER YEAR for many years of his life, when instead he should have been feeding his people? I'm sure they would love to read your angry rants.

Seriously, the more people give evidence that to Koreans this isn't a big deal at all, the harder the trolls be trolling. Now they are down to sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.

Tough. The ethical issues are too closely bound up in your decision to have a wacky holiday.

Seriously, get over yourself. You know what you sound like don't you (ironically).

[Travellin']

We're all entitled to our opinions, but this thread was just asking for tourist information, not an ethical debate.

Tough. The ethical issues are too closely bound up in your decision to have a wacky holiday. Your tax argument is facile; aid to North Korea will happen whether you go on holiday there or not. There are also some structures in place aimed at ensuring the aid gets to the ordinary people it's intended for (undoubtedly these are circumvented and abused - but they're better than nothing). The tourism money goes straight into the back pocket of the savage elite ruling class.

Ok so when you use whatever product you own, do you think about how you could have just supported a company that has a horrendous record of how it treats its staff? Do you have an Apple product? Do you ever wonder if the worker who made your product went on to kill themselves, die early because of s****y factory conditions, or if those people have even been paid to do that job? If they had to work hours upon hours of overtime with no promise of getting paid? Did you keep an eye on the list of the companies that were continuing to do business in Burma when it was generally accepted that no company should be doing business with them?

And as someone said before, stop paying taxes to South Korea. They give aid to the North. High horse. Please dismount.

wardmj7 I have PM-ed you.

[Peekay1982]

Real talk. Don't go. Do you really want to pay for fat blob Jeong-eun's cognac?

I think it was Jeong-Il who had the taste for that stuff. Instead of ruining this thread, why not email Hennesy's, who sold him £700,000's worth PER YEAR for many years of his life, when instead he should have been feeding his people? I'm sure they would love to read your angry rants.

Seriously, the more people give evidence that to Koreans this isn't a big deal at all, the harder the trolls be trolling. Now they are down to sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.

Tough. The ethical issues are too closely bound up in your decision to have a wacky holiday.

Seriously, get over yourself. You know what you sound like don't you (ironically).

Eh? I couldn't care less what Koreans think about whether or not you have a kooky adventure in that crazy kitsch socialist paradise. I think it's wrong to visit. Going there helps fund possibly the most despotic, oppressive regime in existence today. But I'm sure you'll end up with some amazing photos, yeah? Make sure your forehead touches the ground when you bow to the statue of the Dear Leader. 

[Travellin']

Real talk. Don't go. Do you really want to pay for fat blob Jeong-eun's cognac?

I think it was Jeong-Il who had the taste for that stuff. Instead of ruining this thread, why not email Hennesy's, who sold him £700,000's worth PER YEAR for many years of his life, when instead he should have been feeding his people? I'm sure they would love to read your angry rants.

Seriously, the more people give evidence that to Koreans this isn't a big deal at all, the harder the trolls be trolling. Now they are down to sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.

Tough. The ethical issues are too closely bound up in your decision to have a wacky holiday.

Seriously, get over yourself. You know what you sound like don't you (ironically).

Eh? I couldn't care less what Koreans think about whether or not you have a kooky adventure in that crazy kitsch socialist paradise. I think it's wrong to visit. Going there helps fund possibly the most despotic, oppressive regime in existence today. But I'm sure you'll end up with some amazing photos, yeah? Make sure your forehead touches the ground when you bow to the statue of the Dear Leader.

You managed to completely ignore some valid points made, restate statements that everyone else has already made while others have already countered those statements, and continue to provide absolutely nothing to this thread beside "I think its wrong". Well some people don't think its wrong. And you sound kind of spiteful and nasty against people for no discernible reason.

Thanks heaps for contributing!

[Peekay1982]

Real talk. Don't go. Do you really want to pay for fat blob Jeong-eun's cognac?

I think it was Jeong-Il who had the taste for that stuff. Instead of ruining this thread, why not email Hennesy's, who sold him £700,000's worth PER YEAR for many years of his life, when instead he should have been feeding his people? I'm sure they would love to read your angry rants.

Seriously, the more people give evidence that to Koreans this isn't a big deal at all, the harder the trolls be trolling. Now they are down to sarcasm, the lowest form of wit.

Tough. The ethical issues are too closely bound up in your decision to have a wacky holiday.

Seriously, get over yourself. You know what you sound like don't you (ironically).

Eh? I couldn't care less what Koreans think about whether or not you have a kooky adventure in that crazy kitsch socialist paradise. I think it's wrong to visit. Going there helps fund possibly the most despotic, oppressive regime in existence today. But I'm sure you'll end up with some amazing photos, yeah? Make sure your forehead touches the ground when you bow to the statue of the Dear Leader.

You managed to completely ignore some valid points made, restate statements that everyone else has already made while others have already countered those statements, and continue to provide absolutely nothing to this thread beside "I think its wrong". Well some people don't think its wrong. And you sound kind of spiteful and nasty against people for no discernible reason.

Thanks heaps for contributing!

I don't think anyone has countered the essential problem I have with going to North Korea: doing so directly puts money into the pocket of the ruling elite. You've obviously decided that the ethical and moral implications of visiting North Korea take secondary importance to your desire to have an out-of-this-world holiday. That's your choice - but don't get upset if people call you out on it. You can label me whoever you choose and you can also undertake an imaginary moral audit of everything I've ever thought, done, or bought, but understand: this thread is essentially asking people's advice on facilitating the perpetuation of a twisted dictatorship. Your whiny assertion that, basically, "other people do morally suspect stuff too" isn't relevant; we're discussing North Korea. Have a great time.

[lotte world]

I don't think anyone has countered the essential problem I have with going to North Korea

But you're not going, which is the best way for you to deal with your problem.  Well done!

[Travellin']

"doing so directly puts money into the pocket of the ruling elite"

eeerrrr right because the North Korean elite are the only ones who f*** people over.

Yes, comparing moral dilemmas is completely necessary in this situation. You think its morally wrong for me to go to NK all for the sake of looking like a hipster (NK Korea is sooo not mainstream). I point out that people regularly participate in morally deviant activities and its unfair to single this particular activity out for giving money to human rights abuses when most consumerists are sponsoring human rights abuses everyday.

North Korean tourism - over its 20 year span, it has become a lot less policed and a lot more North Koreans are less hesitant about approaching foreigners. This shows a very slow opening up process, and the propaganda they are feed are obviously being a tiny bit countered with what they see. They are now more used to foreigners in real life then the foreigners portrayed in the media 20 years ago. You give people a chance to hear about the outside world (and my research into North Korea tourism shows this. It is definitely happening).

For me as a person it will shape how I feel about politics and about the world around me. It will cause me to think more in depth about the state, media just from how I experience this and other countries. It makes you think about a lot of things No matter how much you read, no matter how much you are accompanied by guides, nothing can compare to experience.

And if this means that Kim Jung Un gets his supply of doughnuts for the year, I can live with that and sleep at night.

And some people can sleep at night knowing slave labour made their products because hey, its shiny and all their friends think they're cool.

So GTFO