Alcohol banned at GEPIK orientation

[woman-king]

I mean, personally, whatever--the GEPIK orientation I went too had no issues with alcohol and we had a great time hanging out in the lounge by the convenience store with those giant beer bottles...but, it's a work thing, and if past orientations have gotten out of hand and I was a coordinator I'd ban it too. 

But I do think there's some hypocrisy in here that's bothering people--at my GEPIK orientation I felt that, during one lecture, one of the coordinators was reprimending non-drinkers who "think it's so difficult to drink soju after work" in a lecture on Korean culture.  And as a young female NET, I've been made uncomfortable by older drunken male teachers at required professional school dinners.  Since GEPIK is now banning alcohol at their orientations, I'd LOVE to see them hold Korean teachers to similar standards and provide some honest training on how to deal with these types of alcohol-fueled situations.  As far as I remember, neither the issues of hazing/forced-drinking that men especially experience in Korea, nor sexual harassment, were covered in any of the required-for-all GEPIK classes, and I don't think they were touched on in any optional course either.   

[wafflebunny]

so to all the "teachers" who think orientation (or korea in general) is some sort of frat party, let me express my utter hatred and contempt for you, your general unprofessionalism, and your inability to exercise proper conduct where it calls for it the most. [mod edit: removed vulgarity]. some of us actually like it here and want to stay longer.

Errrr...wow! You guys are very passionate about this topic. 

[ame]

Personally I couldn't care about the lack of alcohol, I've noticed there are far too many people who treat this job as an extension of college. Grow up, suck it in and if you don't like the rules leave.

Do you care about being treated like a child?

Do you care about acting like one?

Perhaps you should stamp your foot.  That'll really get the point across.

[seanerd]

Over the past 5 years, GEPIK has tried to hold up an image of professionalism. Past GEPIK orientations have nad too many instances that have hurt that image. They spend a lot of money to book a venue (including places for us to sleep, food to eat, lecture halls) and have rooms trashed, lectures empty, due to the mususe of alcohol. Many of this venues have not asked GEPIK back due to such behavior.

The ban of alcohol is to protect their investment. If they are not selling it, distributing it, or allowing it in the rooms, GEPIK will not be held directly responsible if teachers break the rules and bring alcohol on the site.

Once again, GEPIK works very hard to give us the best possible lecturers and  best experience as possible. I agree that it is within their rights to create an environment that fits the image they want to promote. After all, they are paying for it.

Now to those who can't live without alcohol for a day and a half, my advice is this. Remember why you are here. Be responsible. and Don't get caught.

[richarquis]

Having watched firsthand the amazing stupidity and disrespect shown by some at these orientations, I'm not surprised. At one of the courses in Gyeongju in 2009, some people thought, during an already noisy party on the 1st night (held on the 2nd floor of a hotel, audible from the 7th, by private guests who, with their very young children, were trying to sleep) that it would be amusing to set off the fire extinguishers inside the hotel room. Seconds later, an entire room was covered in several inches of white foam. The co-ordinators became aware of the situation very quickly, cleared the room of revelers, and rounded up the culprits. The culprits were sent home first thing in the morning, with a letter from the co-ordinators, to explain themselves to their principals. As far as I know, they were fired immediately, but that's just hearsay. Whatever the case, embarrassing at the least, and quite likely career-damaging. The hotel staff had to spend 2-3 hours cleaning the foam from the room.

Soooooo... This is the kind of crap that these people have had to deal with. Maybe you, OP, or others who sympathize, do not resort to this level of behaviour, and resent being tarred with the same brush. Fair enough. But it's also fair, from their perspective, that they shouldn't have to spend their time babysitting the kinds of people who do act as such. And it's also fair that responsible teachers shouldn't be having their reputations questioned because of a few dunderheads.

[cannjo83]

I'm kind of on both sides of the fence here:
As an education major and aspiring teacher of my subject area I really am interested in learning the different techniques and tools available at the orientation to help me become a better teacher.
On the other hand, I've heard so many stories from friends about how much fun they had partying with the other teachers they met at orientation. In no way am I saying it should be cool to abuse alcohol while on a business trip, but banning it does kind of dull the experience for those who know how to conduct themselves professionally.

[justanotherwaygook]

Having watched firsthand the amazing stupidity and disrespect shown by some at these orientations, I'm not surprised. At one of the courses in Gyeongju in 2009, some people thought, during an already noisy party on the 1st night (held on the 2nd floor of a hotel, audible from the 7th, by private guests who, with their very young children, were trying to sleep) that it would be amusing to set off the fire extinguishers inside the hotel room. Seconds later, an entire room was covered in several inches of white foam. The co-ordinators became aware of the situation very quickly, cleared the room of revelers, and rounded up the culprits. The culprits were sent home first thing in the morning, with a letter from the co-ordinators, to explain themselves to their principals. As far as I know, they were fired immediately, but that's just hearsay. Whatever the case, embarrassing at the least, and quite likely career-damaging. The hotel staff had to spend 2-3 hours cleaning the foam from the room.

Soooooo... This is the kind of crap that these people have had to deal with. Maybe you, OP, or others who sympathize, do not resort to this level of behaviour, and resent being tarred with the same brush. Fair enough. But it's also fair, from their perspective, that they shouldn't have to spend their time babysitting the kinds of people who do act as such. And it's also fair that responsible teachers shouldn't be having their reputations questioned because of a few dunderheads.

I find this to be one of the most level-headed posts here.  I think it's just an unfortunate situation all around. 

I almost wish that this could just be daytime training over a few days.  But I know the logistics (being so spread out geographically, amount of material to be covered) require an overnight session.

[Davey]

Some of you guys are bickering--please stop it, and focus on the topic.

Thanks!

[aaandy]

It seems that this is one instance of a wider issue within Korea - NETs being told they 'can't do something' by the Korean co-ordinators; NETs dislike the infringement of their rights; other NETs point out that the previously-held liberties resulted in behaviour that affects the reputation for all of us.

For what it's worth: I would also intrinsically object to being told I couldn't drink, even though during a training course I wouldn't have even bothered drinking anyway as it's working hours... on the other hand, we already have a shitty enough reputation in this country that I can understand why the co-ordinators want to curb such behaviour. It could, and would affect the standing of all other new teachers if a few rotten apples spoiled it for everyone else.

Unfortunately the EPIK admissions policy is such that pretty much anyone with a degree and a native voice can get in; and so, can they really expect that everyone who comes is going to come for the right reasons, i.e. to teach and to teach well? I would say that a tightening of the admissions policy would be in order - maybe making the TESOL certificate mandatory or something, I'm not sure...

But to face the task at hand, 'having a drink' and 'being blind drunk and becoming a nuisance' are two mutually exclusive activities. Why not allow drinking, but ban disruptive behaviour as a result of inebriation? That way those that fancy a quick drink after work can do so in peace, and those that would cause disruption get weeded out and sorted out.

[singletrackmind]

What I don't get is why they just don't fire those few who do.

At my last two orientations, it was quite a lot more than a few.  There were easily over 100 people acting like idiots every night and morning of the orientation.  And to those who say this is treating us as children, well it seemed to me that a large number of the teachers were acting exactly like children.  It's so embarrassing as a foreigner to be compared to a lot of these other individuals.

[Denevius]

so just to get this straight:

1) gepik already understands there's a certain lack of competence in their hiring process which is why a handful of people who come in and overdrink requires them to ban alcohol at orientation.

2) their decision seems totally wrong-headed, as what they're basically doing is passing off the problem to the schools. people who can't behave at orientation probably won't be able to behave once they've gone off from orientation. and i'm sure most have met people who obviously can't handle the responsibility of the whole work thing.

3) since gepik is the company doing the actual hiring, shouldn't it be their job to also put up with the headache of potential problems of native teachers? yes, it may cause them additional work, but if they were doing their job better in the beginning when they hired these people, maybe they'd have fewer instances of the kind being described.

having said that, alcohol is everywhere in korea. one thing they won't be able to stop people from doing is drinking. and if they are totally strict about dismissing anyone and everyone who they find having a drink, they'll probably accomplish more losing good teachers than finding the bad ones. it ain't gonna be easy to tell people in their late 20s, 30s, and 40s that they can't drink. or it'll be about as easy as telling koreans of the same age group, considering how people here social drink to the level they do.

ultimately, in a new environment, it is a great way to lower the many defenses that's gonna be there at orientation.

[Burndog]

I think that it's more to do with the media than it is to with Native English Teachers. 

Last year there was an article in one of the Korean newspapers that described GEPIK Orientations as being a three day party of booze and debauchary sponsored by the Korean taxpayer.  Predictably this means that in order to be seen to be clean, the organisation must demand that teachers do not drink at Orientation.

Never forget that as a Public School teacher your salary is paid by the taxpayer...and as an extension...your training is funded by the taxpayer too.  The first hint of media scandal and these organisations take whatever steps they deem necessary in order to maintain their public image.  When the article came out last year, there was a good chance that the entire Orientation program would be scrapped.

I think it's much better to have an Orientation, and meet some new people, hopefully learn one or two new things...and not drink....than it would be to have no Orientation at all.  But that's just my humble opinion.  It's a shame that the person who wrote the "expose'" chose to go over the top and fabricate a certain number of examples and quotes...but I can understand why it's made GEPIK a little gunshy.  It's always worth remembering that things are much bigger than you...this isn't about you...and your need to have a beer or two after work.

[hunterst]

I'm disappointed because I want to meet new people.  While I can obviously meet new people without drinking, it is much easier and quicker to meet them while drinking.  This is doubly disappointing considering Korea's drinking culture.  It's funny that people bring up professionalism, drinking after meetings, especially after meeting new clients or workers, is how business operates here.  By drinking we would be professional.  I've been in Korea for 7 months, I doubt that I will learn much of anything here, I'll keep an open mind, but this might have been helpful at the start.  I'm so tired of people worrying about other foreigners behaviour, as if we all directly represent each other.  We don't, my actions are mine, and yours are yours.  The Korean peope are smart enough to know this as well, thoose that would point to some drunken waygook to blame the rest already have a bad image of us and want a scapegoat.  I have not really encountered this drunken foreigner sterotype that people talk about, I doubt that it is that prevalent.  Most Koreans really don't care about us one way or the other.  Get too drunk if you want to, it won't make me angry, or make me look bad.

[tfuller]

"I’ve been talking to a friend who spent a lot of time abroad, and who used to drink with some of the English teachers and expat community in South Korea. Her theory is that something about being in a foreign country – a place where you don’t really have that many ties – makes people act irresponsibly, especially with regards to alcohol. She says that somewhere in the back of your mind, you just know that the consequences of your actions aren’t going to follow you home or stick with you for life in the way that they would if you did this stuff in your hometown."

http://peripateticpedagogue.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/tlg-drama/

[NZ4Life]

  [...] my actions are mine, and yours are yours.  The Korean peope are smart enough to know this as well, thoose that would point to some drunken waygook to blame the rest already have a bad image of us and want a scapegoat.  I have not really encountered this drunken foreigner sterotype that people talk about, I doubt that it is that prevalent.  Most Koreans really don't care about us one way or the other."

it's funny because almost everything you said is probably the opposite of how things "really are". how long have you been here again? are you aware you are living in one the most homogeneous populations in the world?

moreover, westerners drinking with other westerners with western values are NOT practicing Korean "business" and you know it. Korean males do it in "business" because they have a hard time expressing themselves (although yes, they also do it to unwind,); we may do it for similar reasons but to say we're practicing Korean values when we get together is utter bull.

[dwebsterlfc]

I can't believe this topic has had 5 pages worth of replies. I love drinking as much as the next person but how hard is it to have a few days off and then just organise to go out with every1 the following weekend?

[sunsengbu]

I think the alcoholics are going to bring their own stash.  People will still have a chance to netowrk behind closed doors.  Who knows, people may flood into the gym during after conference hours~~ get a runner's high or something, I don't know. 

[hunterst]

  [...] my actions are mine, and yours are yours.  The Korean peope are smart enough to know this as well, thoose that would point to some drunken waygook to blame the rest already have a bad image of us and want a scapegoat.  I have not really encountered this drunken foreigner sterotype that people talk about, I doubt that it is that prevalent.  Most Koreans really don't care about us one way or the other."

it's funny because almost everything you said is probably the opposite of how things "really are". how long have you been here again? are you aware you are living in one the most homogeneous populations in the world?

moreover, westerners drinking with other westerners with western values are NOT practicing Korean "business" and you know it. Korean males do it in "business" because they have a hard time expressing themselves (although yes, they also do it to unwind,); we may do it for similar reasons but to say we're practicing Korean values when we get together is utter bull.

Are you so sure.  You must have a pretty low opinion of the Koean's people to think that they can not tell the actions of an indvidual and a group apart.  The Koreans I know have no prolme doing this.  Furthermore why are yo so concerned about what they think anyways?  Why is is it bull?  What do I do when I'm drinking at school dnners? Is it that intrinsically differnt than what I do with my western friends?

[atmosphere]

"I’ve been talking to a friend who spent a lot of time abroad, and who used to drink with some of the English teachers and expat community in South Korea. Her theory is that something about being in a foreign country – a place where you don’t really have that many ties – makes people act irresponsibly, especially with regards to alcohol. She says that somewhere in the back of your mind, you just know that the consequences of your actions aren’t going to follow you home or stick with you for life in the way that they would if you did this stuff in your hometown."

http://peripateticpedagogue.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/tlg-drama/

I completely disagree and think the opposite is true.

I have no problems getting absolutely smashed when I'm in England. Generally, I can do what I want (to a reasonable extent) and talk my way out of it since I'm (obviously) familiar with culture and custom in England, so I know what will and won't offend someone.

Here, in Korea, I'm a lot more humble and respectful. I wouldn't dare get TOO drunk - I'm scared of getting deported haha.

[elzoog]

So many things to say...

Frankly, I'm with the camp that believes there shouldn't be any restrictions. All the new teachers are adults and presumably can control themselves. Curfews and alcohol bans definitely makes one feel like a child (and perhaps people will act more like children if that's how they are treated).

It's not about treating, or not treating people like children.   The reason we have laws is that people cause problems.   We have laws against murder because people murder and that causes problems.   We don't have laws against eating pepperoni pizza because although people eat pepperoni pizza, doing so doesn't usually cause a problem.   We don't for example say, that since you are an adult, you are responsible enough to decide for yourself whether murder is okay or not.

Similarly, the reason GEPIK has a rule about no alcohol, is that people were causing problems.  Maybe you in particular, don't cause problems, but there is no way that GEPIK could know that, even by reading this board. 

So basically, here is the problem

P) People go to an orientation, get drunk and become unruly.

One solution to P is to not allow alcohol at the orientation.   If you can think of a different way of solving P that is actually feasible, let's hear it.

For those who show up late the next day or appear hungover a written warning could be given. Three warnings could result in being fired For those who get totally inebriated and cause a scene, fire them and send them back home immediately. This would weed out the bad apples fairly quickly.

It's possible these NETs were fired when they caused trouble.   I'm sure it's possible.  Don't know how feasible it is because the public school is expecting a native teacher and doesn't want to not have one.

Furthermore, if this sort of binge drinking and partying is such a problem every single orientation, perhaps GEPIK (and other MOE/POEs) should be looking at the quality of people they hire. Increase the requirements (at least a certification) and you'll weed out a decent number of people who are only here to party and replace them with people who actually have interest in teaching.

The requirements are already, a bachelor's degree.   Which places the NET in the top 20% in his country as far as his education.   Adding to that, the requirement of a certification would weed them out, how exactly?