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Author Topic: A question for French Canadians / non-native English speaking South Africans  (Read 540 times)

DMZ

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We all know that Korean are trying feverishly to learn English - they import thousands of teachers a year and spend billions paying us to try and improve Koreans' English speaking abilities. It seems to be an uphill battle, and I for one, don't always feel like we're making much of a dent. So my question is, why does it seem to be so easy for South Africans and French Canadians to pick up perfect English? I taught in South Africa and 90% of my kids had had English as a 2nd/3rd/4th or 5th language, yet they spoke it absolutely fluently and with perfect pronunciation.

The obvious answers of British colonialism and immersion aside, do you believe there's something within either education system or within society itself which made it easier to learn? Something that perhaps, the Korean education system could learn from?
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adriansergiusz

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A constant interaction with it and a need to actually use what is learned, perhaps could be one of many many answers. I mean I would say with French Canadians, it all depends on their background and how much of both languages they use. I've met my fair share of French Canadians which have quite a thick accent and mispronounce words all the time, but their skill is much better compared to many Koreans I meet here. Of course, stubbornness seems to be a french trait and they often resist its usage or don't learn it at all (especially Quebecers outside of Montreal and Quebec City/tourism)
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Thomas Mc

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French = European language that English borrowed words from heavily.

Korea = Homogeneous country with no reason to use another language.
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sasez

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I taught in South Africa and 90% of my kids had had English as a 2nd/3rd/4th or 5th language, yet they spoke it absolutely fluently and with perfect pronunciation.

I disagree that these students speak with fluency and perfect pronunciation.  I also taught in SA and many of my university and high school students did not speak very well, didn't enunciate their words properly and couldn't get through simple sentences without overusing fillers and repetition.  In many instances, grading students on verbal and written communication skills required much liberal use of 'benefit of the doubt' and best guess - if they were really fluent and spoke clearly, I wouldn't have to guess and work out what they were trying to say.  Yes, there are many non-mother tongue English speakers in SA who speak English as fluently (and even better than) as mother tongue speakers but if 90% of your kids spoke English so well, I would say you were either very, very lucky or teaching in a more affluent area.  I've taught at good schools and a good uni in SA and can honestly say that if a third of my my non-mother tongue English students spoke fluently and with good pronunciation, I was lucky.  I also ran the writing centre at a university for several years and the number of South African born and raised students who could only communicate at a very basic level in English was alarming.  Even doing English as a home language at school, it's not difficult for non-mother tongue speakers to get distinctions in the subject because so little is actually required of them in the exams.  Constantly being told that I expected too much of my students (because I expected them to structure their writing logically, speak clearly and actually do their work) is one of the main reasons that I no longer enjoyed teaching in SA.

As to how they acquire English with seemingly more ease: English is used every day in most situations back home so people who live in cities are exposed to English far more regularly on a day-to-day basis than they are here.  90% of the movies and tv series that we get are in English so you have to understand English in order to enjoy tv programmes.  Most of our education is offered in English and many Black parents want their kids to be taught in English for various reasons.  When you're exposed to a language on a daily basis, you're forced to use it and we use if for daily communication, studying, social interactions, etc. My French is awful for the most part because I don't use it very often. However, put me in a situation where I have to use only French for a couple of days and it quickly improves because I'm being forced to use that language only and not fall back on my mother tongue of English.  The same goes for my Zulu, Afrikaans and Sign Language.   I 'speak' five languages (Korean will be my sixth) but my degree of fluency in each language varies significantly and, with little or no exposure to three of those languages for the majority of the time, I'd be very hesistant if I were now expected to have a conversation in any of those three language.  It doesn't mean that I don't understand that conversations that I hear from time to time when meeting other South Africans here, but speak with confidence? Umm...no.

In Korea, students seem to do most of their English talking in our classes so that's only once or twice a week.  Their grammar knowledge is pretty good, many can read fairly fluently, their writing is understandable and their vocabularies exceed those of many students back home.  Ask them to think on the spot in a foreign language and apply all of that knowledge is daunting for many second language speakers.

In many instances, when English and non-English speakers are together, English is usually used as the default language.  In my opinion (and as a first language English speaker), English speakers are lazy when it comes to learning other languages because we already speak the 'international' language.  Non-mother tongue English speakers who grow up in bilingual or multilingual countries like SA are forced to learn a second language that is necessary even within their home country.
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charn56

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As "sasez" says it is about immersion.

I grew up in Germany and Uruguay when I was young. Necessity made me learn German and Spanish, though since then (I was 7 when I left Uruguay) I haven't needed to use either language, so my skills are now zero for German and intermediate for Spanish.

So people in South Africa, Wales and Ireland (Native Gaelic speakers) and French Canada are going to learn English more easily because they need to, if they want to have an easier life. There is no real necessity to learn English if you are Korean, just a desire. Films are all subtitled (which is enough until you actually know what you are missing out on) and Western songs...who needs to know the lyrics?

"Thomas Mc" French = European language that English borrowed words from heavily.

Semantics, I know, but French words were imposed upon the English language, rather than borrowed, necessarily. The same applies to our use of Scandinavian and German roots. 1066 and all that!
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teacher_del

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(Perspective:  Anglo-Quebecoise.)

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The obvious answers of British colonialism and immersion aside

I don't think you can put immersion aside. Quebecois from more isolated areas tend to have poorer English than those from more mixed, urban, or touristy areas.  French-Canadian students who have an English-speaking parent or who attend English or English immersion schools have the best English of all.  After one has been taught the rudiments of the language and thus has a framework to build upon, use and exposure are the biggest factors in second language acquisition. If Mom is anglophone and Dad is francophone, your English will probably be pretty good even if you are in the French education system.

So my question is, why does it seem to be so easy for South Africans and French Canadians to pick up perfect English?
a) It's not easy.
b) "Perfect" English is rarer than you imply.

Most French Canadians don't have perfect English.  Many have very good English.  If you aren't perpetually exposed to and using the language, you are not going to reach perfection.  You can artificially create such an environment for yourself, but most people don't. 

Achieving complete fluency in a language is HARD.  It is hard for French Canadians.  It is hard for Koreans.  It is easier for French Canadians, however, because there are a lot of linguistic similarities between English and French (English being the illegitimate child of all of Europe), there is a TON of French influence in English vocabulary, they generally have more exposure to English than your average Korean, and they at least use the same alphabet -- and English opens up more immediate job opportunities because of their proximity to English-speaking populations, giving them much more immediate incentive to branch out from their native tongue.

One would think that these same advantages would lead to a lot of bilingualism among Canada's English-speaking population, but that's generally not the case. Despite having more exposure to French than most Americans (it's on all the cereal boxes, yo!), your average Anglo-Canadian is not fluent in French.  Mastering a second language, as stated above, is hard.  English speakers are generally less motivated to pick up French.  Most of them decide they don't need it. My cousins in Saskatchewan didn't take a single French class until high school.  (Disliking this, my cousin put her daughter in French from elementary. She just came back from an exchange trip in Quebec and is now hosting her francophone friend.  It's awesome!)

Quote
do you believe there's something within either education system or within society itself which made it easier to learn? Something that perhaps, the Korean education system could learn from?
Within society, I'd say it's mainly the immediate incentive to expand one's world that leads to higher levels of English mastery.  For a lot of Koreans, English is not necessary beyond passing their exams.  Its global use makes English fluency an excellent way of expanding one's world, but Korea can be pretty self-contained.  Although foreign culture is gradually exerting more and more influence on Korea, there's still a long, long way to go before your average Korean really NEEDS to master English.

Educationally, I think English is taken more seriously within the Quebec school system. I attended French elementary school for a few years, and English study was much more intense and study-focused than the "fun fun English" way we are encouraged to teach in Korea.  I also studied FSL in the English system.  I know the rationale behind making language learning fun, but it doesn't mesh with the way I was taught French, the way my peers were taught English, and the results we obtained in an ESL/FSL (rather than EFL) context. 

My experience of language learning in Quebec was mostly based on learning French, but the few years I spent half-listening to English class in French school seemed roughly similar.  This is what I remember: 

We had homework.  You went home and did your exercises, studied for your dictee, memorized the verb list and assigned vocabulary, and read your texts aloud. 

Feedback was more frequent.  Your homework, quizzes, dictees, and coursework were graded and returned to you.  You could fail and be moved to remedial classes or assigned extra help.  At least in my schools, there were support programs in place to get less-skilled students up to a basic level of functioning. 

We did projects.  Class was homework-checking, grammar or vocabulary study, and then creative activities or projects in which students had to produce original language.  This is key:  we were expected to produce original language. 

We didn't do Korean-style listen and repeat.  (Some drilling, yes, but then you moved along to using that language.) 

We almost never played games.  We sometimes got to do activities that were more entertaining than others, but games were a rarity.

We had more exposure to authentic media, and were expected to extract information from it relatively early on.  When we got to watch movies, there were no subtitles. 

Linguistically, Korean students have to overcome the MAJOR obstacles of learning a new alphabet and acquiring entirely foreign grammar structures.  Culturally, I think they are impeded by the relative lack of creativity demanded in Korean education in general.  I don't know if the teaching methods in my husband's middle school are representative of most of Korea, given his students' abysmal placement in citywide test scores, but his kids aren't expected to produce anything original in KOREAN class.  To really master a language, you have to learn to use it originally, to improvise, to think laterally, to take what you've learned from one context and apply it in another. Are these things being developed in the Korean education system?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 03:01:23 pm by teacher_del »
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tardigrade

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I can't comment on the way second languages are taught in Canada and South Africa. However, I can see a difference between Korean's learning English and the way some other countries learn English. In Korea, English is 'bent' to suit Koreans - hence Konglish; whereas other's 'bend' their own language to accommodate English. In other countries where I have taught, people didn't make up new English words or invent fake meanings for existing words or add consonants because it 'felt' better. People learnt English. Here, Kids are taught Konglish from an early age (by teachers who think they are teaching real English) so the kids get bad habits from day one.
There is an implied arrogance to the way Koreans think they can learn English

(when I say 'Koreans' I don't mean every Korean person. Of course)
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jeane86

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I am a South African with English as my second language. Personally I think the fluency of SAcans' English depend on which area they grow up in. In some towns almost no-one speaks English and is it very difficult to practice, but in other parts English is spoken more widely. It differs from town to town, city to city and even from province to province.

Our educational system requires us to have English taught in schools from very early on and it is a compulsory subject throughout school. The difference is that not ALL our subjects are compulsory in high school, unlike here in Korea. So we work harder to get good grades in all our compulsory subjects (for me it was only Afrikaans and English, but I think it might have changed since). That said, not everyone cares about grades and school and would thus in some cases still be pretty bad in English and Afrikaans.
Then you have to keep the reverse in mind too; Afrikaans native speakers in SA, in most cases, speak better English than English native speakers speak Afrikaans despite Afrikaans being compulsory for them too. This is because most Afrikaans speakers understand English and it is thus not that important for the English speaker to be able to use Afrikaans. So in the end I believe it is the motivation behind learning a language that makes the difference - both personal and societal. Also being able to use English in society is rather important in SA since it is one of the official languages. It is used in everything official and in many social settings (Afrikaans is used less in official settings). Here in Korea no-one speaks English outside of school except for foreigners. So the amount of exposure to English makes a huge difference.

In the end I don't think you can really compare SA to SK and I'd rather not say anything about Canada cause I don't know much about their situation.
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adriansergiusz

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(Perspective:  Anglo-Quebecoise.)

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The obvious answers of British colonialism and immersion aside

I don't think you can put immersion aside. Quebecois from more isolated areas tend to have poorer English than those from more mixed, urban, or touristy areas.  French-Canadian students who have an English-speaking parent or who attend English or English immersion schools have the best English of all.  After one has been taught the rudiments of the language and thus has a framework to build upon, use and exposure are the biggest factors in second language acquisition. If Mom is anglophone and Dad is francophone, your English will probably be pretty good even if you are in the French education system.

So my question is, why does it seem to be so easy for South Africans and French Canadians to pick up perfect English?
a) It's not easy.
b) "Perfect" English is rarer than you imply.

Most French Canadians don't have perfect English.  Many have very good English.  If you aren't perpetually exposed to and using the language, you are not going to reach perfection.  You can artificially create such an environment for yourself, but most people don't. 

Achieving complete fluency in a language is HARD.  It is hard for French Canadians.  It is hard for Koreans.  It is easier for French Canadians, however, because there are a lot of linguistic similarities between English and French (English being the illegitimate child of all of Europe), there is a TON of French influence in English vocabulary, they generally have more exposure to English than your average Korean, and they at least use the same alphabet -- and English opens up more immediate job opportunities because of their proximity to English-speaking populations, giving them much more immediate incentive to branch out from their native tongue.

One would think that these same advantages would lead to a lot of bilingualism among Canada's English-speaking population, but that's generally not the case. Despite having more exposure to French than most Americans (it's on all the cereal boxes, yo!), your average Anglo-Canadian is not fluent in French.  Mastering a second language, as stated above, is hard.  English speakers are generally less motivated to pick up French.  Most of them decide they don't need it. My cousins in Saskatchewan didn't take a single French class until high school.  (Disliking this, my cousin put her daughter in French from elementary. She just came back from an exchange trip in Quebec and is now hosting her francophone friend.  It's awesome!)

Quote
do you believe there's something within either education system or within society itself which made it easier to learn? Something that perhaps, the Korean education system could learn from?
Within society, I'd say it's mainly the immediate incentive to expand one's world that leads to higher levels of English mastery.  For a lot of Koreans, English is not necessary beyond passing their exams.  Its global use makes English fluency an excellent way of expanding one's world, but Korea can be pretty self-contained.  Although foreign culture is gradually exerting more and more influence on Korea, there's still a long, long way to go before your average Korean really NEEDS to master English.

Educationally, I think English is taken more seriously within the Quebec school system. I attended French elementary school for a few years, and English study was much more intense and study-focused than the "fun fun English" way we are encouraged to teach in Korea.  I also studied FSL in the English system.  I know the rationale behind making language learning fun, but it doesn't mesh with the way I was taught French, the way my peers were taught English, and the results we obtained in an ESL/FSL (rather than EFL) context. 

My experience of language learning in Quebec was mostly based on learning French, but the few years I spent half-listening to English class in French school seemed roughly similar.  This is what I remember: 

We had homework.  You went home and did your exercises, studied for your dictee, memorized the verb list and assigned vocabulary, and read your texts aloud. 

Feedback was more frequent.  Your homework, quizzes, dictees, and coursework were graded and returned to you.  You could fail and be moved to remedial classes or assigned extra help.  At least in my schools, there were support programs in place to get less-skilled students up to a basic level of functioning. 

We did projects.  Class was homework-checking, grammar or vocabulary study, and then creative activities or projects in which students had to produce original language.  This is key:  we were expected to produce original language. 

We didn't do Korean-style listen and repeat.  (Some drilling, yes, but then you moved along to using that language.) 

We almost never played games.  We sometimes got to do activities that were more entertaining than others, but games were a rarity.

We had more exposure to authentic media, and were expected to extract information from it relatively early on.  When we got to watch movies, there were no subtitles. 

Linguistically, Korean students have to overcome the MAJOR obstacles of learning a new alphabet and acquiring entirely foreign grammar structures.  Culturally, I think they are impeded by the relative lack of creativity demanded in Korean education in general.  I don't know if the teaching methods in my husband's middle school are representative of most of Korea, given his students' abysmal placement in citywide test scores, but his kids aren't expected to produce anything original in KOREAN class.  To really master a language, you have to learn to use it originally, to improvise, to think laterally, to take what you've learned from one context and apply it in another. Are these things being developed in the Korean education system?

Spot on, I must say out of curiousity sake Quelle ville vous etes dans originaire du Quebec? Sorry that was my really half assed way to attempt to maintain my french and ask a question without butchering the grammar lol. I must say to the original post is probably the reversal. Why have so many anglo-phones not maintained and not wanted or perhaps haven't felt the need to grasp the amount of french that is taught. I know for me, in Ontario it is government mandated that children learn from as early if I'm not mistaken as grade 1 to grade 9, French is mandatory. Though the amount of language that is actually learnt and used is quite low, there are obvious exceptions to this, as many families from french background have the option to send their children to  french  schools, or apply to go to french immersion from an early date on which can sway this.  There is access to french programs outside of Quebec, although I think it boil down to necessity. Francophones are almost out of necessity motivated or at least for their benefit learning English, while the reversal may not be so. I mean the government has done quite a bit to encourage french education and has spent so much to promote it. I know this, because I took part in a federally sponsored program "j'explore" that allows university students/professional/graduate students to enroll at a french university and study french for a credit and certification, for 5 weeks and I just happened to be placed in a part of Quebec where most people had survival english and most people only spoke French (Trois-Rivieres). I think it was a fantastic program, although at times it was a bit too rigourous enforcing "French only" speaking policies, but it really was wonderful. I personally cannot stand the grammar but the speaking experience for myself was just amazing, and I had learned more in 5 weeks than I ever had in 8 years of education.

So often times when I do teach my children, I really do have a grasp of there perspective on learning English. I remember myself in the shoes of some these children learning that language class that I found so "irrelevant and unnecessary" that I never really bothered to learn it outside of the textbook that was taught. The constant vocabulary/drilling/unauthentic/ and just irrelevant material at the time, that I couldn't be bothered. Though now being in this position, I understand the frustration this teacher must've had dealing with a bunch of unmotivated, and incapable to speak but vocabulary reguritating/parrot repeating students that we were.

Sorry I went a bit off-topic but I think it sort of interwenes with this, just that I think the wrong question is being asked, perhaps, it should be asked why more Canadians DO NOT speak French. Again, immigrations and languages people are often encouraged to share and maintain, may also play a massive role in that. What are some of your opinions on this especially to my fellow amis canadien?
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cragesmure

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I think a greater level of exposure is definitely a factor.
It think that people underestimate the importance of the similarities of the languages.  I'm from Australia, but I've learnt (some) German, Korean and Chinese, and German is by far the easiest for me to learn.  Obviously, the grammar isn't identical to English, but the script is more familiar, the vocabulary is similar in many cases, and (the often underestimated) cultural similarities also play a role. 
Having said that, I don't think it's any accident that Chinese people speak English far better than Koreans.  This has to do with Chinese teachers being more competent in English than their Korean counterparts, as well as the general respect that Chinese people have for the competence of the foreign teacher.  I also find Chinese students to be a touch more out-going and readily accepting of different teaching methods, which allows the foreign teacher to settle into a groove and build a rapport with the students more quickly, which obviously leads to a more effective learning environment.  At least that has been my experience.
Having said that and that, I still find Korean easier to learn and use than Chinese.
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Welsh Canuck

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Back in Ontario the immersion program means half the day is in French and half the day is in English.  They don't do that here.  If they did they might be able to learn both languages.

But the immersion program isn't the best way.

In Ontario you can go to a French school.  Learn French all day and speak English with your parents.  They should do that here.  But I'm sure there would be some up roar about how the Korean language is being side lined.
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Yeseul Julie Kim

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this is such an interesting topic! :D

I definitely agree with the point that exposure to the language plays a huge role
in learning to be fluent in that language.

I'm not so sure about what it's like in Canada,
but in SA there's 11 official languages - English is one of the main languages used though.

So it is more natural for non-English mother tongue speakers to speak multiple languages.
Especially for African-black people, they speak 2 or more of African languages
and on top of that, depending on their location, they speak Afrikaans or English.

And yes, English is a compulsory subject in schools
and you can decide to take it as a first language or as a second language.
and I'd say that the level of English taught at school is quite high for the both classes.

Even in second language classes, whether it's English or Afrikaans,
teachers speak 95% or more in that language and only if the student really struggles to understand,
it'll be explained in their L1.

I agree largely on 3 main factors that's mentioned so far.

1. Exposure

2. Education system

3. Similarity of your L1 to your L2 that you're trying to learn.

4. L2 only needed to get good grades - no need for application of the language
   
and hence,

5. lack of opportunity to produce the language in an authentic setting.

So in Korea, students have minimal exposure to English,
Education system is rather ineffective and badly organised
and their mother tongue language is sooooo different from English..

and on top of that, they are only taught the skills or tricks of getting high marks in tests
and once they're out of school, work requires them to have high scores in TOEFL and TOEIC
but they still don't get the chance to really use English at work either...

Shame, I feel sorry for Korean kids who try so hard to be fluent in English
by memorising all the difficult grammar rules, learning how to translate
and engulping endless list of vocabs...

language can't be learnt by just memorising and repeating...

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