Author Topic: Korean men detained on sex tourism charges (Read 2021 times)

kengreen · « **on:** May 20, 2017, 03:42:57 PM »

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2017/05/371_229701.html

Prostitution is illegal in Korea. You can get fifteen years in prison.

eggieguffer · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2017, 07:46:34 PM »

I don't get this story at all. It says the guys had sex with 19-21year olds, so why were they arrested? Is prostitution illegal in the Philippines? If so why don't the local police arrest the entire foreign population of Angeles? And why is a Korean child protection group involved?

Maybe they'd have gotten away with it if they hadn't insisted on booking a big, noisy group sex tour with an interpreter that only visited brothels which served Korean food?

Thomas Mc · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2017, 08:46:47 PM »

i agree. It seems weird if they are prosecuting adults for having sexual relations with other adults.

Prostitution is absolutely rampant in Asia. Literally everywhere you go.

And it seems to be growing in popularity in the west too. Even socially acceptable almost.

Not saying that's right or moral but it is the reality.

Chinguetti · « **Reply #3 on:** May 21, 2017, 12:45:24 AM »

Well, to tackle the first, prostitution is illegal in the Philippines, even though it's still very patronized. Regardless of how rampant and "socially acceptable" prostitution is in many parts of the world, that doesn't mean that there aren't people who don't want to do something about it, especially where it's connected to other types of crimes. Tackling the problem isn't simple, though, partly due to lax attitudes (exposure leading to a sense of normalcy), lack of pragmatic laws and personnel, weak enforcement, prosecution of prostitutes with little to no attention being placed on the people running and supplying the industry in the first place, corruption, and ignorance of solicitors who think prostitution is a victimless crime.

For the rest of it, even if those prostitutes are women now, they didn't start off that way. They were most likely children when they started. Most are human trafficking victims and/or children who were taken advantage of. When you're forced into the business and everyone treats you like a criminal after the fact unless you're literally chained to a bed (because things like manipulation, brainwashing and coercion don't exist?), and no one provides you with adequate help and protection to make escape more feasible (especially when everyone thinks you came into the business as a mature and willing adult to begin with and see you as the source of the problem rather than a result of one), it makes it very difficult to seek another life. You just learn to adapt to it and to "become" what everyone says you are.

http://www.dw.com/en/philippines-struggling-to-tackle-child-prostitution/a-18305386

http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Philippines/sub5_6e/entry-3895.html

eggieguffer · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2017, 12:58:32 AM »

Quote

Well, to tackle the first, prostitution is illegal in the Philippines,

Yeah it seems it is, according to that article.

If you've ever been to Angeles you'd know that the idea of prostitution being illegal in the Philippines is almost on a par with saying gambling is illegal in Las Vegas. It's laughable.

Out of the 500,000 prostitutes in the Philippines, sure some of them will have been trafficked, as kids, some of them won't. Some of them will probably wish the police would butt out of their affairs and that arresting Korean sex tourists will be bad for business. To quote your second source " Some prostitutes like their jobs because the money is good. Many bar workers and prostitutes staged protests in 1991 an 1992 against the closing of Subic navy base."

However, some of them might be grateful to be 'saved'. Does arresting 7 Korean punters really affect any of that above?

Chinguetti · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2017, 01:34:58 AM »

Quote from: eggieguffer on May 21, 2017, 12:58:32 AM

Quote
Well, to tackle the first, prostitution is illegal in the Philippines,

Yeah it seems it is, according to that article.

If you've ever been to Angeles you'd know that the idea of prostitution being illegal in the Philippines is almost on a par with saying gambling is illegal in Las Vegas. It's laughable.

Out of the 500,000 prostitutes in the Philippines, sure some of them will have been trafficked, as kids, some of them won't. Some of them will probably wish the police would butt out of their affairs and that arresting Korean sex tourists will be bad for business, some of them might be grateful to be 'saved'. Does arresting 7 Korean punters really affect any of that?

Doesn't really matter what's going on in other parts of the world when the question was why they'd even bother in the Philippines. That's the start of that reason.

And the number of prostitutes in the Philippines who entered the industry as children or as unwilling adults is more than just "some". Regardless of how they feel about it later, it's a cesspool from start to finish.

Arresting the 7 Korean tourists was meant to serve as a message more than anything else, and could have acted as a start towards something more active and progressive (you've got to start somewhere, after all). That action is very easily undermined, however, so it won't go anywhere or lead to any change of significance if they don't follow through with that message and begin to consistently enforce the law.

This is why when it was learned that the perps in question weren't going to face any charges that harsh criticism was drawn from groups who are very closely involved in dealing with the ramifications of the industry (someone wondered why a child advocacy group was speaking up about it since the prostitutes involved were adults -- this is why. It's all connected.).

CDW · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2017, 10:54:53 AM »

Quote from: eggieguffer on May 20, 2017, 07:46:34 PM

Is prostitution illegal in the Philippines?

Yes, but the law is rarely enforced. I wonder if Koreans are being targeted by the police in the Philippines for some reason. I'm sure it would be easy to catch people of other nationalities doing the same thing.

Some Koreans were also arrested for fraud and gambling and paraded in front of the press:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2017/05/251_229669.html

donovan · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2017, 04:25:26 PM »

Perhaps prostitution laws weren't well enforced until recently, like drug laws, but with the new sheriff Duterte in town, seems things are changing quite quickly.* He's even now set out to curb public smoking. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/world/asia/rodrigo-duterte-smoking-ban-philippines.html

How many men have to be caught with prostitutes before they learn their lesson...

*this is in no way an endorsement of his enforcement methods

MayorHaggar · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2017, 09:08:13 PM »

Laws in Asia only exist to be used to make an example of people, usually foreigners.

JNM · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2017, 10:40:55 PM »

Korean citizens an be charged in Korea for things they do abroad, even if it is legal in the location the crime took place. I have heard stories of gambling charges being laid after trips to foreign casinos.

Chinguetti · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2017, 11:24:00 PM »

Another thing to remember is that Korean men prominently fuel the sex tourism industry in S.E. Asia these days, especially in countries like the Philippines and Thailand, and a lot of Korean organized crime is connected to it along with other criminal activities in those areas.

So it also wouldn't surprise me if this were a message directed at S. Korea in particular to stop painting all of its citizens as innocent bystanders, especially in light of all the condemnation S. Korea threw Duterte's way after the murder of that Korean businessman.

donovan · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2017, 12:23:06 AM »

Quote from: JNM on May 21, 2017, 10:40:55 PM

Korean citizens an be charged in Korea for things they do abroad, even if it is legal in the location the crime took place. I have heard stories of gambling charges being laid after trips to foreign casinos.

That's right, I had forgotten about that. I thought it was weird that the Philippines had delegated the criminal charges to Korea on this. So these guys just paid their bail and were free to leave to Philippines? Sounds like their identities were leaked and they at least got some social condemnation as a result?

Something similar happened with the pitching corps of the Samsung Lions a couple years ago for gambling in Macao right before the KBO series. They were suspended and Doosan took the title as a result.

Teemowork · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2017, 11:25:21 AM »

Quote from: donovan on May 21, 2017, 04:25:26 PM

Perhaps prostitution laws weren't well enforced until recently, like drug laws, but with the new sheriff Duterte in town, seems things are changing quite quickly.* He's even now set out to curb public smoking. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/world/asia/rodrigo-duterte-smoking-ban-philippines.html

How many men have to be caught with prostitutes before they learn their lesson...

*this is in no way an endorsement of his enforcement methods

Duterte should've just ordered to have those men to be punished in his country first, before returning them to Korea. Let those guys wait for president Moon to pay them a visit to bail them out.

I don't get why they weren't punished in the Philippines tbh. Even if you are a tourist, if you did something illegal in the country you were visiting, it's not like you get some diplomatic immunity or something. It also doesn't sound like there is a lack of proof, nor does it sound like the guys complained at all about being framed for a crime they didn't do or is making any claim that they didn't know it was illegal. So, with that said, it does seem like they quite clearly realized what they were doing, and knew it was wrong, yet went ahead with it anyways.

kyndo · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2017, 11:32:30 AM »

Quote from: JNM on May 21, 2017, 10:40:55 PM

Korean citizens an be charged in Korea for things they do abroad, even if it is legal in the location the crime took place. I have heard stories of gambling charges being laid after trips to foreign casinos.

This is pretty common, I think. Same is true in Canada for certain crimes.
Solicit sex from minors in Asia? Go to jail when you return home.

Teemowork · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2017, 11:48:48 AM »

Quote from: kyndo on May 22, 2017, 11:32:30 AM

Quote from: JNM on May 21, 2017, 10:40:55 PM
Korean citizens an be charged in Korea for things they do abroad, even if it is legal in the location the crime took place. I have heard stories of gambling charges being laid after trips to foreign casinos.

This is pretty common, I think. Same is true in Canada for certain crimes.
Solicit sex from minors in Asia? Go to jail when you return home.

Not sure if I agree with that level of jurisdiction. Not saying that the activity isn't wrong, just saying having that level of coverage even when someone purposely makes the effort to go to an area where something is legal, just to do what they wanted seems retarded.

Can you imagine how that kind of stuff would play out on every other "illegal" thing?

Someone going to another state where MJ is legal just to enjoy it a bit, comes back to his home state where its illegal, then gets sent to jail. Yeah, that's retarded.

Someone going to Vegas or an Indian reservation casino just for a few days of gambling for fun, crosses the border back to his hometown, just to get arrested for gambling charges. Seems silly.

You might even go to a different state/country with a higher freeway speed limit, which you obey, BUT when you come back, you get slapped with a speeding ticket when you get back.

Granted, these are all really small things compared to human trafficking related crimes, but still, it's just setting a silly precedent to cover EVERYTHING as any government sees fit. The jurisdiction should really lie solely on whichever government/country in which the "crime" took place. In this particular case, the gov't of the Philippines should be charging the men, and that should be the end of it. After all, it's still illegal in their country.

If you passed the jurisdiction to the offender's home country, would the reverse situation be true too? If they go to a different country, commit an act deemed illegal there, but in their home country that same activity was completely legal, would it be the case that they couldn't be charged with anything?

Pecan · « **Reply #15 on:** May 22, 2017, 12:17:19 PM »

Teemowork,

You are misinformed.

There are laws on the books in the US and 30 some other countries (they have been since the 70s) that cover these sorts of acts.

President Clinton made some amendments and created the Crime Against Humanity Act.

Quote

Sec. 2423. Transportation of minors

(a) Transportation With Intent To Engage in Criminal Sexual Activity. - A person who knowingly transports any individual under the age of 18 years in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the United States, with intent that such individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(b) Travel With Intent To Engage in Sexual Act With a Juvenile. - A person who travels in interstate commerce, or conspires to do so, or a United States citizen or an alien admitted for permanent residence in the United States who travels in foreign commerce, or conspires to do so, for the purpose of engaging in any sexual act (as defined in section 2246) with a person under 18 years of age that would be in violation of chapter 109A if the sexual act occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

Sec. 2246. Definitions for chapter

As used in this chapter -

(1) the term ''prison'' means a correctional, detention, or penal facility;
(2) the term ''sexual act'' means -
(A) contact between the penis and the vulva or the penis and the anus, and for purposes of this subparagraph contact involving the penis occurs upon penetration, however slight;
(B) contact between the mouth and the penis, the mouth and the vulva, or the mouth and the anus;
(C) the penetration, however slight, of the anal or genital opening of another by a hand or finger or by any object, with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person; or
(D) the intentional touching, not through the clothing, of the genitalia of another person who has not attained the age of 16 years with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person;
(3) the term ''sexual contact'' means the intentional touching, either directly or through the clothing, of the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks of any person with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person;
(4) the term ''serious bodily injury'' means bodily injury that involves a substantial risk of death, unconsciousness, extreme physical pain, protracted and obvious disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member, organ, or mental faculty;
(5) the term ''official detention'' means -
(A) detention by a Federal officer or employee, or under the direction of a Federal officer or employee, following arrest for an offense; following surrender in lieu of arrest for an offense; following a charge or conviction of an offense, or an allegation or finding of juvenile delinquency; following commitment as a material witness; following civil commitment in lieu of criminal proceedings or pending resumption of criminal proceedings that are being held in abeyance, or pending extradition, deportation, or exclusion; or
(B) custody by a Federal officer or employee, or under the direction of a Federal officer or employee, for purposes incident to any detention described in subparagraph (A) of this paragraph, including transportation, medical diagnosis or treatment, court appearance, work, and recreation; but does not include supervision or other control (other than custody during specified hours or days) after release on bail, probation, or parole, or after release following a finding of juvenile delinquency.

weigookin74 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 22, 2017, 12:23:24 PM »

Quote from: Chinguetti on May 21, 2017, 12:45:24 AM

Well, to tackle the first, prostitution is illegal in the Philippines, even though it's still very patronized. Regardless of how rampant and "socially acceptable" prostitution is in many parts of the world, that doesn't mean that there aren't people who don't want to do something about it, especially where it's connected to other types of crimes. Tackling the problem isn't simple, though, partly due to lax attitudes (exposure leading to a sense of normalcy), lack of pragmatic laws and personnel, weak enforcement, prosecution of prostitutes with little to no attention being placed on the people running and supplying the industry in the first place, corruption, and ignorance of solicitors who think prostitution is a victimless crime.

For the rest of it, even if those prostitutes are women now, they didn't start off that way. They were most likely children when they started. Most are human trafficking victims and/or children who were taken advantage of. When you're forced into the business and everyone treats you like a criminal after the fact unless you're literally chained to a bed (because things like manipulation, brainwashing and coercion don't exist?), and no one provides you with adequate help and protection to make escape more feasible (especially when everyone thinks you came into the business as a mature and willing adult to begin with and see you as the source of the problem rather than a result of one), it makes it very difficult to seek another life. You just learn to adapt to it and to "become" what everyone says you are.

http://www.dw.com/en/philippines-struggling-to-tackle-child-prostitution/a-18305386

http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Philippines/sub5_6e/entry-3895.html

Yep, pretty much. It does fuel trafficking. There's plenty of googling to read about this topic. Trafficking, kidnapping, exploiting young women and little girls, pimping, etc. There are sex pedophile rings, even, for the rich and the elites, etc. It's all pretty disgusting. Now, I wouldn't care so much if it was a more mature women choosing it. But, many do end up in it when they are young and that's the problem. I wish pimps and traffickers would get the death penalty and there would be some kind of hard core crackdown. Get these predators off the street.

As for Korea, I'm surprised there's a sex abroad law. I'm also surprised there's a penalty of up to 15 years in jail, considering the culture here. But, it has died down and the pink districts seem to have reduced themselves in terms of many shop windows being closed. I'm not surprised that it got "dropped" by the local police, however. But, the culture is changing either way. The culture of corruption after the impeachment of Park Geun Hye is probably going to face closer scrutiny.

weigookin74 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 22, 2017, 12:24:34 PM »

Quote from: Pecan on May 22, 2017, 12:17:19 PM

Teemowork,

You are misinformed.

There are laws on the books in the US and 30 some other countries (they have been since the 70s) that cover these sorts of acts.

President Clinton made some amendments and created the Crime Against Humanity Act.

Quote
Sec. 2423. Transportation of minors

(a) Transportation With Intent To Engage in Criminal Sexual Activity. - A person who knowingly transports any individual under the age of 18 years in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the United States, with intent that such individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(b) Travel With Intent To Engage in Sexual Act With a Juvenile. - A person who travels in interstate commerce, or conspires to do so, or a United States citizen or an alien admitted for permanent residence in the United States who travels in foreign commerce, or conspires to do so, for the purpose of engaging in any sexual act (as defined in section 2246) with a person under 18 years of age that would be in violation of chapter 109A if the sexual act occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

Sec. 2246. Definitions for chapter

As used in this chapter -

(1) the term ''prison'' means a correctional, detention, or penal facility;
(2) the term ''sexual act'' means -
(A) contact between the penis and the vulva or the penis and the anus, and for purposes of this subparagraph contact involving the penis occurs upon penetration, however slight;
(B) contact between the mouth and the penis, the mouth and the vulva, or the mouth and the anus;
(C) the penetration, however slight, of the anal or genital opening of another by a hand or finger or by any object, with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person; or
(D) the intentional touching, not through the clothing, of the genitalia of another person who has not attained the age of 16 years with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person;
(3) the term ''sexual contact'' means the intentional touching, either directly or through the clothing, of the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks of any person with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person;
(4) the term ''serious bodily injury'' means bodily injury that involves a substantial risk of death, unconsciousness, extreme physical pain, protracted and obvious disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member, organ, or mental faculty;
(5) the term ''official detention'' means -
(A) detention by a Federal officer or employee, or under the direction of a Federal officer or employee, following arrest for an offense; following surrender in lieu of arrest for an offense; following a charge or conviction of an offense, or an allegation or finding of juvenile delinquency; following commitment as a material witness; following civil commitment in lieu of criminal proceedings or pending resumption of criminal proceedings that are being held in abeyance, or pending extradition, deportation, or exclusion; or
(B) custody by a Federal officer or employee, or under the direction of a Federal officer or employee, for purposes incident to any detention described in subparagraph (A) of this paragraph, including transportation, medical diagnosis or treatment, court appearance, work, and recreation; but does not include supervision or other control (other than custody during specified hours or days) after release on bail, probation, or parole, or after release following a finding of juvenile delinquency.

Too bad Bill Clinton was busy hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein. (Well, until he got caught, that is.)

Chinguetti · « **Reply #18 on:** May 22, 2017, 12:33:18 PM »

Quote from: Teemowork on May 22, 2017, 11:25:21 AM

I don't get why they weren't punished in the Philippines tbh.

Well, there was an article (if not the one linked) that said that claims were made from both countries' authorities that there wasn't enough evidence to move forward with charges, but advocacy groups are calling bullshit on that for all the good that will do besides just bringing attention to the inconsistency.

Teemowork · « **Reply #19 on:** May 22, 2017, 12:43:29 PM »

Quote from: Pecan on May 22, 2017, 12:17:19 PM

Teemowork,

You are misinformed.

There are laws on the books in the US and 30 some other countries (they have been since the 70s) that cover these sorts of acts.

President Clinton made some amendments and created the Crime Against Humanity Act.

Well, if that is the case, then that's just how it is.

If something is really a "crime against humanity", I'm sure the sovereign country in which the crime took place has no problems punishing the individual.

Regardless, I still disagree with the idea of that level of jurisdiction though. It basically saying that, one country doesn't have to give a sh*t about another country's laws (what's legal there or not), and have their laws have infinite coverage. It just feels like government overreach, that's all.

Putting the level of the crime aside, it basically means if someone goes to another country where shooting up heroine was legal, the government could theoretically make a law to punish that individual when they get back.

Same for if someone was from a very strict Muslim dominated country, and they went to America where they acted differently from what was accepted in their home country, but came back just to get executed or something.

That "Crime Against Humanity Act" sounds more like an agreement between multiple countries of what is considered "wrong". So, in this limited scope, it probably makes sense. But regardless, I still cringe a bit when I hear that any system of government is allowed this type of overreach.

But looking at that quote you pasted again, there is a key word in there of "...intent of CRIMINAL sexual activity." So, I guess technically, if some American guys traveled to a country there prostitution was legal, then it wouldn't be criminal? I guess maybe I'm overreacting with the government overreach thing. Because, the Crime Against Humanity Act you pasted DOES respect the laws of the foreign country.

Author Topic: Korean men detained on sex tourism charges (Read 2021 times)

Buy/Sell/Trade

Employment